I noticed that Florida is fixing to get hit with another Hurricane. This time it is hurricane Jeanne. Their have been quite a few hurricanes that have hit Florida this year in such a short of period of time. I can't ever remember so many hurricanes coming in at such a short period of time myself. I have always said, that business can start paying for and spending money now on more environmental friendly chemicals and products or they can spend alot more money later in the future from the revenge that Mother Nature will take on them. Either way they will have to pay... but it would save them alot more trouble if they pay upfront for environmental friendly products or pay alot more later from the devestation that Mother Nature will wreck on them. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

Um... it's actually global "colding", if you will. So we need to dump more crap into atmosphere to save us from freezing.

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global warminf by itself is not a problem.. an extremely quick global warming (as we are experiencing now) due to human activity is very dangerous (could lead to a clobal cooling)... and economic benefits of implementing kyoto treaty (which is a very small step forvard) are much much larger then "business as usual"... business as usuall will lead to the big economic losses.. investment into the cleaner technologies will lead great economic beneits (it goes w/o saying that it will also lead to a much cleaner air/water/soil)... lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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business as usuall will lead to the big economic losses.. investment into the cleaner technologies will lead great economic beneits (it goes w/o saying that it will also lead to a much cleaner air/water/soil)...

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That's right. However, the way I understand it, global warming is what would cause the polar ice caps to melt and also cause strange and unusual weather behavior. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

You know, if Kerry was smarter, he would let Florida know how for 30 years he fought against global warming, and almost nothing he backed passed. Since florida is so important, this could swing the election :) Seriously speaking, unfortunately the effects of environmental policies are so long-term, that it would not be a realistic business investment. No one would spend money now to prevent some hurricane 20 years from now. Any changes have to be government-driven (like the other article you posted about California).

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

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Seriously speaking, unfortunately the effects of environmental policies are so long-term, that it would not be a realistic business investment. No one would spend money now to prevent some hurricane 20 years from now. Any changes have to be government-driven (like the other article you posted about California).

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Yup, I agree, that is why I have always said you do need some government regulation in the economy. There can be no security anywhere in the free world if there is no economic stability within the United States. Those who ask us to trade our freedom for the soup kitchen of the welfare state are architects of a policy of accommodation. -Reagan

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

this is not true.. ecological problems bring problems to the economy right away - polution costs billion of dollars in health care costs, loss of business productivity etc.. rapid climate changes cause (and they do now!) decline in crop production (per area).. flooding (due to dams, destruction of forests, and large areas of paved surface) cause billions of dollars in losses right now.. there are many other examples.. hurricanes are just part of the bigger problem...

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Originally posted by Egor: You know, if Kerry was smarter, he would let Florida know how for 30 years he fought against global warming, and almost nothing he backed passed. Since florida is so important, this could swing the election :) Seriously speaking, unfortunately the effects of environmental policies are so long-term, that it would not be a realistic business investment. No one would spend money now to prevent some hurricane 20 years from now. Any changes have to be government-driven (like the other article you posted about California).

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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Originally posted by Egor: You know, if Kerry was smarter, he would let Florida know how for 30 years he fought against global warming, and almost nothing he backed passed. Since florida is so important, this could swing the election :) Seriously speaking, unfortunately the effects of environmental policies are so long-term, that it would not be a realistic business investment. No one would spend money now to prevent some hurricane 20 years from now. Any changes have to be government-driven (like the other article you posted about California).

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This is really funny!! sKerry's only chance is to scare people with his BS so they will vote for the loser who is so far from reality that nothing he voted for during the last 30 years got paased!! "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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Originally posted by snake: this is not true.. ecological problems bring problems to the economy right away - polution costs billion of dollars in health care costs, loss of business productivity etc.. rapid climate changes cause (and they do now!) decline in crop production (per area).. flooding (due to dams, destruction of forests, and large areas of paved surface) cause billions of dollars in losses right now.. there are many other examples.. hurricanes are just part of the bigger problem...

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Lyosha, there is some truth to this, but if this was sufficient, we would not be having this discussion. Whatever problems arise are not sufficient for corporations to make expensive changes. One reason is that unless other corporations make the same changes, you are just wasting money, because there are thousands of heavy polluting corporations who will keep polluting. Another reason, is that most of the effects of pollution do not harm pollutters any more than they harm non-polluters. For example, the most hurt segments of the economy are not actually polluters themselves. Polluters on the other hand are not hurt at all. For example, the biggest polluter in the US by far, is the automobile industry. They are also completely unharmed by this pollution. So why would they do anything voluntarily?

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

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Originally posted by TAP3AH: This is really funny!! sKerry's only chance is to scare people with his BS so they will vote for the loser who is so far from reality that nothing he voted for during the last 30 years got paased!!

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I was actually kidding, because if Bush scares people with terrorism, why cant Kerry scare people with hurricanes? :)

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by TAP3AH: This is really funny!! sKerry's only chance is to scare people with his BS so they will vote for the loser who is so far from reality that nothing he voted for during the last 30 years got paased!!

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I was actually kidding, because if Bush scares people with terrorism, why cant Kerry scare people with hurricanes? :)

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I don't think Bush needs to scare them - he just has to remind them about 9-11. "Going to war without France is like going deer hunting without an accordion." - Jed Babbin

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my point exactly... untill autoindustry is not responsible for pollution whe will have a problem.. and hat is a role of the federal government - to set priorities... scientific and engeneering community beleives that using current technologies and some very minor cost make up, we can achieve 40mph for the cars... so our tax policy should be based on that - heavy penalize (i.e. tax) cars that have less efficiency... that's only fare - more polution mean more government (i.e. us) have to spend on polution related costs (e.g. healthcare).. this is a basic idea of the free market - everyone must pay (i.e. you pollute - you pay)... as for hurricanes... as we all know most of the damage is done by flooding... our irresponcible policies make this problem much worse... severity, lonivity, and rate of floods is increase many folds by our irresppncible development.. untill developers, planners, and builders are responcible for what they build we wil not solve this problem.. and here is another role of government (in this case state one) - they have to make sure that development do not hurt us.. i.e. we cannot just cut down forest anywhere we want... south florida is a prime example of this... nost of the coastal forest is destroy.. because of that flooding after hurricanes is much begger problem.. there are problems with drinking water and beach errosion.. all thos problems can be minimize by smart development... to summarize, we can not stop or reduce the number hurricanes (in a short run) , but we can minimize the damage by investing into enviroment (and it will bring dividents).. and it is not a task for one industry.. this is a policy that has to be set by government (through tax code and laws)

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by snake: this is not true.. ecological problems bring problems to the economy right away - polution costs billion of dollars in health care costs, loss of business productivity etc.. rapid climate changes cause (and they do now!) decline in crop production (per area).. flooding (due to dams, destruction of forests, and large areas of paved surface) cause billions of dollars in losses right now.. there are many other examples.. hurricanes are just part of the bigger problem...

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Lyosha, there is some truth to this, but if this was sufficient, we would not be having this discussion. Whatever problems arise are not sufficient for corporations to make expensive changes. One reason is that unless other corporations make the same changes, you are just wasting money, because there are thousands of heavy polluting corporations who will keep polluting. Another reason, is that most of the effects of pollution do not harm pollutters any more than they harm non-polluters. For example, the most hurt segments of the economy are not actually polluters themselves. Polluters on the other hand are not hurt at all. For example, the biggest polluter in the US by far, is the automobile industry. They are also completely unharmed by this pollution. So why would they do anything voluntarily?

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lyosha ****************** What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

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lyosha
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What is freedom of expression? Without the freedom to offend, it ceases to exist.

Kyoto treaty - sucks !

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....