I promise myself not to post in the politics section and not to discuss politics, but sometimes I just can't help myself. I can't even comment this... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ palestinians_hamas_era&printer=1;_ylt= AkGb4jeiMtmMyjvkxIm1YzcUewgF;_ylu= X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE- Hamas Set to Lead Palestinian Parliament By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press WriterFri Feb 17, 3:58 PM ET A Palestinian who sent her son on a suicide mission against Israel has been taking civics lessons to prep for her new assignment — becoming a legislator. Signaling the start of the Hamas era, Mariam Farhat will be among 74 members of the Islamic militant group to take the oath of office and assume control of the Palestinian parliament Saturday. Farhat and others in Hamas are confident they'll be able to govern, even alleviate poverty in the West Bank and Gaza, with help from God and cash from the Muslim world. But life is bound to get a lot harder quickly, with Israel planning sanctions, including a blockade of Gaza and a travel ban between the two Palestinian territories. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is caught between Israel and Hamas. His aides said Abbas wouldn't mind seeing a Hamas government collapse over an economic squeeze, but that he won't resort to political ploys to bring down the militants himself. In his opening speech to parliament Saturday, Abbas will demand the militants publicly recognize peace agreements with Israel and the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, but his advisers said he's unsure whether he would fire a Hamas prime minister who would likely defy those demands. Because of Israel travel bans, Saturday's parliament session will be held simultaneously in Gaza City and the West Bank city of Ramallah, with legislators in the two places hooked up by video conference. Many of the 132 legislators will not attend: 14 are in Israeli prisons, and two are on the run from the Israeli security forces. In the Gaza City parliament building, there was no sign Friday that the Fatah Party domination of the Palestinian Authority was coming to an end. The facade was still plastered with posters of Yasser Arafat, the leader who founded Fatah in the 1960s and ruled the Palestinians until his death in 2004. Next door, a three-story parliament building is under construction, funded with $3.6 million from the European Union. Parliament officials said work would be halted because the EU is not willing to foot the bill for a Hamas-dominated legislature. Hamas has responded with bluster and evasion to the West's threats to cut off hundreds of millions of dollars in aid if the group does not renounce violence and recognize Israel. "We are ready to eat the leaves off the trees, before we make a trade for our rights and our land," said Abdel Aziz Duaik, Hamas' nominee for parliament speaker. "We will depend on Allah .... He is our sustainer, not the United States or the West." Farhat, the incoming Hamas lawmaker, also brushed aside money woes, saying Muslim countries would come to the rescue. In recent days, she and others in the Hamas faction were taught by the group's leaders about parliamentary procedures and assigned responsibilities. Women will preside over welfare, health and education, and Farhat said she's eager to improve Gaza's hospitals and increase stipends for the poor. Demure in a gray robe, the mother of 10 got into parliament as the unlikely symbol of holy war, or jihad, against Israel. Three of her six sons died violent deaths, and one of Hamas' top bomb makers, Emad Akel, was killed in a hail of Israeli fire in her front yard after hiding in her basement for a year. In 2002, Farhat sent her 18-year-old son Mohammed on a suicide mission, a shooting rampage in the Jewish settlement of Atzmona that killed five Israeli teenagers. After Israel withdrew from Gaza last summer, the Farhat family returned to the settlement, took what they said was the piece of wire fence Mohammed had cut to get in, and mounted it on an outer wall of their home. Farhat is unapologetic. She said she cries for her boys, but that "jihad comes ahead of everything, including my feelings as a mother." Many of those who voted for Hamas in the Jan. 25 parliamentary election do not share her violent views. They support peace talks with Israel, and just wanted to punish Abbas' Fatah for years of corruption, mismanagement and arrogance. Ala al-Hayek, 35, who owns a tile factory in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, is now starting to realize his vote for Hamas may cost him his livelihood. In the coming days, Israel plans to cut all trade with Gaza except for humanitarian needs, and al-Hayek will have to lay off most of his 22 workers or even shut down. He imports raw materials and exports two-thirds of his product to Israel and the West Bank. For now, al-Hayek said he doesn't regret backing Hamas, and blames Israel for any hardships. Another Hamas voter, Ali Freij, 52, said he'd have to shut his grocery if the borders close. The shelves of the cramped store in Gaza's Shati refugee camp are stocked with noodles and lentils from Turkey, salt and wheat from Israel, and cookies and tissues from the West Bank. Yet Freij relishes Hamas' defiance. "Gaza needs freedom, not food," said the father of 12. Sanctions still await approval by Israel's Cabinet on Sunday. As a first step, Israel would bar 5,000 Gaza laborers and 4,000 traders from entering Israel. All traffic between Gaza and the West Bank would stop, including trips by legislators. Fatah leaders said they believe voters will soon realize they bought into empty Hamas slogans. "If elections were held today, the result would be totally different," said outgoing Information Minister Nabil Shaath, waiting in the rain at Gaza's Erez crossing to make his last trip to the West Bank, via Israel, before the border closes. Shaath, who once toured the world to raise money for the Palestinian Authority, said he doubts Hamas could scrape together enough to run the government. "We have a real problem with Arab aid," he said. "I don't see anyone stepping in." Sasha

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

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Originally posted by gtSasha: I promise myself not to post in the politics section and not to discuss politics, but sometimes I just can't help myself. I can't even comment this... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060217/ap_on_re_mi_ea/palestinians_hamas_era&printer=1;_ylt=AkGb4jeiMtmMyjvkxIm1YzcUewgF;_ylu=X3oDMTA3MXN1bHE0BHNlYwN0bWE- Hamas Set to Lead Palestinian Parliament By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press WriterFri Feb 17, 3:58 PM ET A Palestinian who sent her son on a suicide mission against Israel has been taking civics lessons to prep for her new assignment — becoming a legislator. Signaling the start of the Hamas era, Mariam Farhat will be among 74 members of the Islamic militant group to take the oath of office and assume control of the Palestinian parliament Saturday. Farhat and others in Hamas are confident they'll be able to govern, even alleviate poverty in the West Bank and Gaza, with help from God and cash from the Muslim world. But life is bound to get a lot harder quickly, with Israel planning sanctions, including a blockade of Gaza and a travel ban between the two Palestinian territories. Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas is caught between Israel and Hamas. His aides said Abbas wouldn't mind seeing a Hamas government collapse over an economic squeeze, but that he won't resort to political ploys to bring down the militants himself. In his opening speech to parliament Saturday, Abbas will demand the militants publicly recognize peace agreements with Israel and the U.S.-backed "road map" peace plan, but his advisers said he's unsure whether he would fire a Hamas prime minister who would likely defy those demands. Because of Israel travel bans, Saturday's parliament session will be held simultaneously in Gaza City and the West Bank city of Ramallah, with legislators in the two places hooked up by video conference. Many of the 132 legislators will not attend: 14 are in Israeli prisons, and two are on the run from the Israeli security forces. In the Gaza City parliament building, there was no sign Friday that the Fatah Party domination of the Palestinian Authority was coming to an end. The facade was still plastered with posters of Yasser Arafat, the leader who founded Fatah in the 1960s and ruled the Palestinians until his death in 2004. Next door, a three-story parliament building is under construction, funded with $3.6 million from the European Union. Parliament officials said work would be halted because the EU is not willing to foot the bill for a Hamas-dominated legislature. Hamas has responded with bluster and evasion to the West's threats to cut off hundreds of millions of dollars in aid if the group does not renounce violence and recognize Israel. "We are ready to eat the leaves off the trees, before we make a trade for our rights and our land," said Abdel Aziz Duaik, Hamas' nominee for parliament speaker. "We will depend on Allah .... He is our sustainer, not the United States or the West." Farhat, the incoming Hamas lawmaker, also brushed aside money woes, saying Muslim countries would come to the rescue. In recent days, she and others in the Hamas faction were taught by the group's leaders about parliamentary procedures and assigned responsibilities. Women will preside over welfare, health and education, and Farhat said she's eager to improve Gaza's hospitals and increase stipends for the poor. Demure in a gray robe, the mother of 10 got into parliament as the unlikely symbol of holy war, or jihad, against Israel. Three of her six sons died violent deaths, and one of Hamas' top bomb makers, Emad Akel, was killed in a hail of Israeli fire in her front yard after hiding in her basement for a year. In 2002, Farhat sent her 18-year-old son Mohammed on a suicide mission, a shooting rampage in the Jewish settlement of Atzmona that killed five Israeli teenagers. After Israel withdrew from Gaza last summer, the Farhat family returned to the settlement, took what they said was the piece of wire fence Mohammed had cut to get in, and mounted it on an outer wall of their home. Farhat is unapologetic. She said she cries for her boys, but that "jihad comes ahead of everything, including my feelings as a mother." Many of those who voted for Hamas in the Jan. 25 parliamentary election do not share her violent views. They support peace talks with Israel, and just wanted to punish Abbas' Fatah for years of corruption, mismanagement and arrogance. Ala al-Hayek, 35, who owns a tile factory in the Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, is now starting to realize his vote for Hamas may cost him his livelihood. In the coming days, Israel plans to cut all trade with Gaza except for humanitarian needs, and al-Hayek will have to lay off most of his 22 workers or even shut down. He imports raw materials and exports two-thirds of his product to Israel and the West Bank. For now, al-Hayek said he doesn't regret backing Hamas, and blames Israel for any hardships. Another Hamas voter, Ali Freij, 52, said he'd have to shut his grocery if the borders close. The shelves of the cramped store in Gaza's Shati refugee camp are stocked with noodles and lentils from Turkey, salt and wheat from Israel, and cookies and tissues from the West Bank. Yet Freij relishes Hamas' defiance. "Gaza needs freedom, not food," said the father of 12. Sanctions still await approval by Israel's Cabinet on Sunday. As a first step, Israel would bar 5,000 Gaza laborers and 4,000 traders from entering Israel. All traffic between Gaza and the West Bank would stop, including trips by legislators. Fatah leaders said they believe voters will soon realize they bought into empty Hamas slogans. "If elections were held today, the result would be totally different," said outgoing Information Minister Nabil Shaath, waiting in the rain at Gaza's Erez crossing to make his last trip to the West Bank, via Israel, before the border closes. Shaath, who once toured the world to raise money for the Palestinian Authority, said he doubts Hamas could scrape together enough to run the government. "We have a real problem with Arab aid," he said. "I don't see anyone stepping in." Sasha

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All the restrictions and tough actions the Israeli government is taking against the newly elected Palestinian government won't do the least amount of good towards stopping Palestinian terrorism; and to be frank with you, without a fundamental change in mentality of those people who sit in powerful governments, I can see the possibility that terrorism could bring about the extinction of mankind. This change in mentality hasn't occurred in many governments across the globe and I therefore see a good possibility that man will destroy itself. Many of these governemnts that have become targets of terrorism, have become these targets because these governments themselves have employed, used and participated in terrorism. These governemnts seek to apply one standard to everybody else, but won't follow the standards that they apply to everybody else and actually break those standards. Their is a simple way to stop terrorism, stop participating it and I say this, meaning that those governments targetted by terrorism were targetted because they participated in terrorism. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

Mestiza, we have so much to discuss, I don't know where to begin. :) I'll just say this. Terrorosm against Israel specifically is caused by the fact that most muslims do not recognize its right to exist AT ALL, and feel justified in using homocide bombings in particular against civilian citizens to accomplish that goal. If you don't believe me, ask them, read their media, their websites. it is the official stance of the population, and most definitely the stance of Hamas, the current ruling party. So your allegation of palestinian terror being in response to the Israeli terror just does not fly. They simply want israel gone, all its cotizens dead. that is what they want by default. Independent of the actions of Israel/ So lets move on to Israel's interests. What do they want? They are an educated, free, democratic society, run by laws and constitution that wants to defend women, civil rights, personal freedoms, etc. And yet they are surrounded by countries who want them dead. Your response in this situation would be what? "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

I've modified my post to include line breaks. I don't know why sometimes they are missing and something in the web page makes the browser not wrap the text. This just shows how wrong the idealistic beleifs of many Americans (including the President) are. It is insufficient to just remove Saddam and paint people's fingers blue. A fundamental change in the mentality and worldview is needed, as mestiza correctly said. I don't know how to make it happen though. To give a strange analogy: "one thing is to lead Jews out of Egypt, another is to lead Egypt out of the Jews". Egor, I have to correct you. Israel does not have a constitution although some basic principles were outlined in their "Declaration of Establishment". They planned to write a constitution but never did. However, many democratic countries, most notably those of the British Commonwealth, do not have formal constitutions. That does not stop them from being democratic. Other contries, like many in the former Soviet Union do have constitutions but are nontheless authoritarian regimes. Sasha

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

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Originally posted by Egor: Mestiza, we have so much to discuss, I don't know where to begin. :) I'll just say this. Terrorosm against Israel specifically is caused by the fact that most muslims do not recognize its right to exist AT ALL, and feel justified in using homocide bombings in particular against civilian citizens to accomplish that goal. If you don't believe me, ask them, read their media, their websites. it is the official stance of the population, and most definitely the stance of Hamas, the current ruling party. So your allegation of palestinian terror being in response to the Israeli terror just does not fly. They simply want israel gone, all its cotizens dead. that is what they want by default. Independent of the actions of Israel/ So lets move on to Israel's interests. What do they want? They are an educated, free, democratic society, run by laws and constitution that wants to defend women, civil rights, personal freedoms, etc. And yet they are surrounded by countries who want them dead. Your response in this situation would be what? "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

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I am fully aware of the views held by Muslims in the Middle East as to the attitude that Israel has no right to exist. Israel was created over the dead corpses of the Muslim population that lived their shortly after the end of World War II, much like, the US was created over the dead bodies of Native Americans and betrayal after betrayal from the US government, after the US broke every treaty it signed with the Native Americans, not to mention, the double dealing and lies told to these Native Americans. The Muslims in the Middle East do not accept Israel's right to exist because, they say, they had nothing to do with the Haulocaust that the Jews sufferred in Europe, and, they feel, the only reason why Israel was ever officially created as a state, was to do something to repay the Jews for their sufferring of the Holocaust in Europe. Though it is true,that long long ago, in a far distant time, the Jews did live in what today is modern day Israel and during that far distant time was sent into diaspora abroad, many Jews feel that they have a right to return and reclaim the land the far distant ancestors once lived on. To me, I would ask, if this gives the Jews the right to resettle land they once lived on, thousands of years ago, would it be OK for Native Americans to show up at our houses here in America with tanks and machine guns, tell us that our land never belonged to us and it was time to get off the land, that we would not compensated or paid and thus put into impoverished refugee camps, and if we did not obey and cave into their demands we would be killed instantly, would it be right, just and OK for Native Americans to do such a thing in the similar fashion that many Jews did to the Palestinians just before the creation of Israel? I understand that the conflict is over land and that Muslims in the Middle East do not recognize the claim that Jews make to the land they now occupy and live on. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

And let's not bring in the idea of discrimination against Jews or the Haulocaust in this discussion. I have seen where Muslims were unjustly discriminated against and also sufferred their own holocausts as well, just like the Jews did in World War II, with death camps and mass graves and torture. The Jews and the Muslims have endured the same things in their history and their futures are intertwined with each other or their can be no future for the Jews or the Muslims. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

Mestiza, you need to stop reading Palestinian propanda only and expand your research to both sides of the conflict. Jews always lived on that land, even while in exile there were Jews living there. Muslim population in the area has increased with the Jewish immigration at the end of the 19th century. More jobs were created, more workforce was needed. Prior to that Muslims were not in the business of populating that land as it was mostly a desert. Your "dead corpses" argument doen't fly either. Arab countries instigated a mass exodus of Arabs from Israel, so they could dostroy the new country easier. In fact as many Jews had to flee those Arab countries to Israel in the same war. Which corpses do you refer to? To fully understand the conflict you need to read beyond "This is a promised land, that was unjustfully taken away from Arabs and given to Jews as a result of Holocoust". Don't skip the 2000 years. I would suggest you trace both Muslim and Jewish presence on the land in the last 200 years, and only make your blunt statements.

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He's talking about Bosnian Muslims.

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Originally posted by mestiza: I am fully aware of the views held by Muslims in the Middle East as to the attitude that Israel has no right to exist. Israel was created over the dead corpses of the Muslim population that lived their shortly after the end of World War II, much like, the US was created over the dead bodies of Native Americans and betrayal after betrayal from the US government, after the US broke every treaty it signed with the Native Americans, not to mention, the double dealing and lies told to these Native Americans.

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kish_mish already addressed the "corpses" argument very well. But lets assume you are right. Whites built the US over corpses of Indians (and lets not forget corpses of Africans), and Jews built Israel over corpses of Arabs. Lets say indians began mass terror in american cities, wanting to kill you and your family. I would be interested in your reaction. I would furthermore, be interested in where in the world do you want to live, so you can feel good about yourself by having that country built over no one's corpses. Even if you come up with such a piece of land somewhere in the world, it will be a complete shithole. Because, as everyone knows, all advanced societies, by which you and I are spoiled and which you apparently take for granted are built over countless corpses. Israel, is an oasis of freedom and human rights in a sea of shit. Even with their numerous infractions of freedoms and human rights, which I am sure you will point out, I will gladly compare and contrast them to any other nation in the region. That is not an argument you'll win :) You might not know this, but there is a very large arab population in israel. No one wants to kick them out, and they don't want to leave. You know why? Why don't you think about that. Look at their standard of living, and their personal civil rights, and compare that to how their "brothers" live in palestine.

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Originally posted by mestiza: The Muslims in the Middle East do not accept Israel's right to exist because, they say, they had nothing to do with the Haulocaust that the Jews sufferred in Europe, and, they feel, the only reason why Israel was ever officially created as a state, was to do something to repay the Jews for their sufferring of the Holocaust in Europe. Though it is true,that long long ago, in a far distant time, the Jews did live in what today is modern day Israel and during that far distant time was sent into diaspora abroad, many Jews feel that they have a right to return and reclaim the land the far distant ancestors once lived on.

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I actually agree with you that israel (as a nation) would not exist without the holocaust. But you are dead wrong on the history of the region, as kish_mish correctly pointed out. Palestinian territories, along with jewish territories, were ALWAYS there, not just a "long time ago". If your definition of right to land is based on official status of having a nation there, then by that definition Palestinians have no right to Palestine. It is not the correct definition.

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Originally posted by mestiza: To me, I would ask, if this gives the Jews the right to resettle land they once lived on, thousands of years ago, would it be OK for Native Americans to show up at our houses here in America with tanks and machine guns, tell us that our land never belonged to us and it was time to get off the land, that we would not compensated or paid and thus put into impoverished refugee camps, and if we did not obey and cave into their demands we would be killed instantly, would it be right, just and OK for Native Americans to do such a thing in the similar fashion that many Jews did to the Palestinians just before the creation of Israel?

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It seems to me, that your example is backwards. You said Arabs were displaced by the jews. So who are the indians here, that are trying to terrorize civilians for territorial interests?

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Originally posted by mestiza: And let's not bring in the idea of discrimination against Jews or the Haulocaust in this discussion.

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Agreed. So why did you bring it? "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Mestiza, you need to read up on the history of Israel creation before making "corpse" statements. But I think we already discussed this and we alredy provided you links to the appropriate sources. Non-jewish even. Yet you are still confused who did what to whom and who did it first. Just one fact - arabs in Egypt and Jordan killed more palestinians sinse 1949 than state of Istrael during that time.... Palestinians are the most hated ethnic group in arab world, right after jews... etc...

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Mestiza, you need to read up on the history of Israel creation before making "corpse" statements. But I think we already discussed this and we alredy provided you links to the appropriate sources. Non-jewish even. Yet you are still confused who did what to whom and who did it first. Just one fact - arabs in Egypt and Jordan killed more palestinians sinse 1949 than state of Istrael during that time.... Palestinians are the most hated ethnic group in arab world, right after jews... etc...

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When you read recent history, or better yet, if you KNOW recent history, you will see that all lines of intrusion and violence historically run in one direction when we talk about the major powers and the Islamic World. It is well known that many who are now hailed as freedom fighters in their own communities and accepted as respectable statesmen by the powers that be, were once denounced as terrorists, responsible for killing innocent civilians- Isreali leaders like Begin and Sharon for example. Palestinian terrorism and the terrorism by Bin Laden is in reaction to the terrorist actions of Western and Israeli governments. Many of these terrorists like Bin Laden. members of Hamas or Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev freely admit that they are terrorists but the striking thing that they all say is that their terrorism is a reaction to the state terrorism their people or civilization has been subjected to. "The killing of civilians must be punished with the killing of civilians" as one Hamas activist has stated and this statement describes Bin Laden's line of thinking, though that is not a quote from Bin Laden himself. Not that any terrorist action should be condoned, whether it be state terror or terrorist actions by a stateless, independent terrorist organization. For several centuries now, it would seem that the Islamic World has been under attack and the victim of imperialism, aggression and colonialization. The French invasion of Egypt in the last years of the 18th century, the seizure of Maghreb in the 19th century, the British grab for Egypt and the Italian for Libya, the carve-up of the whole Middle East by Britian and France at the end of World War I, the sponsorship of Jewish colonization of Palestine, the suborning of nominally independent rulers in the Arabian peninsula, the West and Russia acting as accomplices to the genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, Russia's genocidal war against Chechnya down to imperial control of the Middle East by the United States. There are no Arab military bases in Texas or California, no Arab contract mercenaries stationed in Britian or France, no Arab fleets in the Gulf of Mexico, no Arab-sponsored schemes of forcible settlement in the Mid-West. All the lines of intrusion and violence, as I talked about before run historically in one direction and it is that violence and intrusion has come from the major powers and used against the Islamic World with ruthlessness. Bin Laden's victims number probably around the 5,000 ballpark range, a very small figuire when you compare the loss of life the Islamic World has sufferred at the hands of the major powers who were seeking only to further their own selfish, greedy interests at the expense of the Islamic World. "Because you have killed," Bin Laden says, "We must kill, your innocents are not less innocent than ours." Few things he has said are as chilling as Madeleine Albright's statement that this massacre of the innocents was "worth it." Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

Sharon was never considered a terrorist , if all your facts are like that - we have nothing to talk about. Sabra and Shatilla have nothing to do with jews or Sharon....

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Sharon was never considered a terrorist , if all your facts are like that - we have nothing to talk about. Sabra and Shatilla have nothing to do with jews or Sharon....

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Remember - Mestiza redefined terrorism. it means something else to him.. United states is a terrorist state to him, as well as russia, Europe, etc. So why not sharon. Its all about definitions. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Fine than, if everyone is a terrorist, what are we talking about than ? Who's the terroristier of them all ? That would be US, no question there...

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Sharon was never considered a terrorist , if all your facts are like that - we have nothing to talk about. Sabra and Shatilla have nothing to do with jews or Sharon....

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Remember - Mestiza redefined terrorism. it means something else to him.. United states is a terrorist state to him, as well as russia, Europe, etc. So why not sharon. Its all about definitions. "Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe." -H. G. Wells, Outline of History (1920)

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How did I "redefine" terrorism? Terrorism can come directly from governments, independent organizations or individual people. As a matter of fact, if we were to examine the US government's own definition of terrorism and apply it to the US government itself, then we would find that the US government is a terrorist, by it's own definition of what terrorism is. I see a double standard here. I generally like to include other nations in my debate with you, to show that government terrorism is not just a problem in the US but in most major powers. That's not "redefining" terrorism, it's just stating what it actually is and who actually practices it and what some of the causes are for terrorist attacks by independent stateless terrorist organizations. In many cases, it is because their people or they themselves were victims of government terrorism or they have legitimate gripes that are not being addressed and they feel the only way to solve some of the problems they have is through the use of force, because they feel that every other avenue has been exhausted or that their greviences have fell on deaf ears. Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -George Orwell

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Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin