quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IntensityInsanity: Good point, Leah. At first, I thought Egor was going to write some smart stuff; you know, shed some new light on all of us. But after reading the above quote and your response, reality set in: this is just another viewpoint of 'big government, corporations are evil' in disguise. I see now that according to Egor, corporations should not have the freedom to decide who to hire or where to produce their products, etc. So much for democracy.

---

Maybe I am not being clear. Or maybe the world is more complicated than big government vs small government. Either way, let me try this from another angle. Assume you own a farm (the farm represents the United States). On this farm you have many different workers (representing corporations). Who should control the trade policy? (trade represents, i guess selling your tomatoes for cash, buying farm equipment, etc.) Possibly a bad example, but I am just trying to get through to you guys! :) What you don't seem to realize is that whether the government is big or small, the corporations that were able to "make it" in this country, owe everything to the economic stability the country provided to them, the government protection that corporations get all the time, the access to politicians and the political process that normal people don't have, etc. And, now, even their tax burden has shifted down the income scale. Is it so wrong to ask for something in return? Our powerful corporations are our national resource. We allowed them to rise by having a stable capitalist democracy for such a long time. They are our providers of the GDP. They are our providers of employment. They are the foundation of this country. They are not a separate, independent entity.

---

Your example supposes that corporations (and, thus, their owners and stockholders) are merely workers on the government farm. That example makes government (the farm) the employer and master of the businesses (the workers). All commerce decisions would be dictated by or approved by the government (the farm). Hmmm...my understanding is that government farms have not historically been particularly successful.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leah: Democracy is govenment is a great thing. However, if I own a business and decide never to hire an American, that is my concern. Our personal decisions about our property and businesses are not to be subjected to democratic rule. You are indeed advocating protectionism.

---

I looked up "protectionism" in the dictionary and it says "imposition of tarriffs on international trade with a goal of reduction of competition with global industries" I repeat, I do not favor this. Look, I am not saying that anyone should be forbidden to outsource or to import. I know this is a free country and as a business owner you can do whatever you want. What the government CAN do (as mestiza said) is steer tax policy and internal laws in ways where it is suddenly not so profitable to do harm to the country. And where prtecting the environment, providing good benefits, not hiring foreigners, etc. is actually a healthy way to run your business. I can get very specific about what I am suggesting in case it is not already apparent.

---

Egor, I see from your profile that you are from Ukraine. Assuming you did not land in this country with your US citizenship already granted, isn't it fortunate that your first US employer did not share your disdain for hiring foreigners?

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza: Yeah...but the world is becoming a smaller place and thus economies are more globalized. Sometimes you have to ship jobs overseas to keep your economy competitive in a more globalized economy. If your nation's economy can't stay competitive in the global market then you know... it will hurt the prosperity of your nation in the long run.

---

Agreed. There is a critical mass of jobs lost before everyone says something must be done. For me it is already close. For some of you we are not close. But if this continues for 10-20 more years, we will lose a large chunk of our middle class. I think even conservatives will then say something must be done. But by then, we will be the most under-educated, under-employed country with all important industries operating overseas, and China directing the world economy. (which they will do much better then we have). We will be a pawn on the world stage, and it will be too late to do anything. Now imagine this picture in the context of a unilateral war on terror. Not a pretty picture.

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leah: Egor, I see from your profile that you are from Ukraine. Assuming you did not land in this country with your US citizenship already granted, isn't it fortunate that your first US employer did not share your disdain for hiring foreigners?

---

1) I have no problem with anyone hiring legal immigrants (citizens or not)who pay taxes and SPEND THEIR EARNINGS in the US. 2)I also said that I do not have a problem with corporations hiring foreigners abroad, if they deem it more profitable. Whether or not it is profitable in all cases, is where I want change. As far as my example w the farm, I was illustrating a proper way to run a business or a country. (As Greenspan says - The United States is a super-corporation, and will only be successful when run as such). We can say the farm workers are small farming businesses who have their own employees. That part is not important. The key issue is that as long as I take some of their produce (communism) or they sell it themselves and I tax them on the profits (capitalism), the effect in my example is the same.

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor: 2)I also said that I do not have a problem with corporations hiring foreigners abroad, if they deem it more profitable. Whether or not it is profitable in all cases, is where I want change.

---

The two sentences above are mutually exclusive.

quote:

---

As far as my example w the farm, I was illustrating a proper way to run a business or a country. (As Greenspan says - The United States is a super-corporation, and will only be successful when run as such). We can say the farm workers are small farming businesses who have their own employees. That part is not important. The key issue is that as long as I take some of their produce (communism) or they sell it themselves and I tax them on the profits (capitalism), the effect in my example is the same.

---

My point is that I do not work for the government....in any way.

Alot of people were angry when they lost their jobs when the automobile came along. The thing is this... economies change over time and if you want to stay competitive and if you want your nation to remain prosperous...then the people of that nation have to adapt to the changing economy. Some people lost their jobs to outsourcing and new trends that have come along recently but that doesn't mean that in the long run the US economy is headed for trouble. The US economy will be headed for trouble if we maintain protectionist policies because other economies will adapt to changes why our hypothetical protectionist policies won't permit us to do so ... leaving us less competitive and less prosperous in the long run. Change is hard and it can suck sometimes...but that is the way it goes if you want to maintain a strong economy over the long haul. "And I hope that when you are my age, you will be able to say as I have been able to say: We lived in freedom. We lived lives that were a statement, not an apology." -Reagan

---

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leah: [quote]Originally posted by Egor: 2)I also said that I do not have a problem with corporations hiring foreigners abroad, if they deem it more profitable. Whether or not it is profitable in all cases, is where I want change.

---

The two sentences above are mutually exclusive. [quote] I do not believe so. Freedom of choice for corporations is still there. We already have many policies in place that make it for example not profitable to pollute. They can still choose to pollute, but they have to pay higher taxes. I am not suggesting anything as radical as you guys think. [quote]Originally posted by Leah: My point is that I do not work for the government....in any way. [quote] I would not word it that way either. But we all contribute to the GDP (America's profit as a nation), and we all contribute to the government with our taxes. We are also democratically in control as voters. So however you want to word it.. I would say the government is working for us. Either way, the two are not independent of each other.

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Another thing you can consider Egor... is starting your own business. My old job with H & R Block is putting me through some tax courses for businesses (sole proporitors) and I am going to learn as much as I can so that I can start my own business and I can run my own show. My dream... is to own my own business in the video game industry. It would be so awesome. I study alot into 3D vector math and programming in Direct3D. I also have a market guide to the game industry and learn how they make their money...how the stores make thier money...3rd and 2nd party developers...contractors...publishers... man you name. Their is opportunity out their for you... you just have to look at the business world through the eyes of the entrepreneur where most people will pessimism...the entrepreneur sees endless opportunity and exploits them. Their is opportunity out thier... you just have to figure out what your dreams are and then come up with a plan and go after it. If you aren't building your dream, you are building somebody else's "And I hope that when you are my age, you will be able to say as I have been able to say: We lived in freedom. We lived lives that were a statement, not an apology." -Reagan

---

Are you angry that others disappoint you? remember you cannot depend upon yourself.
-Benjamin Franklin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leah: [quote]Originally posted by Egor: 2)I also said that I do not have a problem with corporations hiring foreigners abroad, if they deem it more profitable. Whether or not it is profitable in all cases, is where I want change.

---

The two sentences above are mutually exclusive. [quote] I do not believe so. Freedom of choice for corporations is still there. We already have many policies in place that make it for example not profitable to pollute. They can still choose to pollute, but they have to pay higher taxes. I am not suggesting anything as radical as you guys think.

---

Are you then suggesting higher taxes for those business who choose to do the other things on your list...hiring foreigners or outsourcing, importing goods, etc.?

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza: Alot of people were angry when they lost their jobs when the automobile came along. The thing is this... economies change over time and if you want to stay competitive and if you want your nation to remain prosperous...then the people of that nation have to adapt to the changing economy. Some people lost their jobs to outsourcing and new trends that have come along recently but that doesn't mean that in the long run the US economy is headed for trouble. The US economy will be headed for trouble if we maintain protectionist policies because other economies will adapt to changes why our hypothetical protectionist policies won't permit us to do so ... leaving us less competitive and less prosperous in the long run. Change is hard and it can suck sometimes...but that is the way it goes if you want to maintain a strong economy over the long haul.

---

Please understand, that my views are not based on feeling sorry for people who lost their jobs. I am not THAT liberal! :) And I agree with I think everything you have said so far. I just believe that today's policies are harmful long-term. With the examples in the past (cars, computers, refrigerators, etc.), yes, people lost jobs, but at the same time new industries flourished and hired many more people. In today's environment of globalism, it is not a given that every lost job will lead to 2 new ones. Each situation should be examined as it comes. Outsourced jobs will not come back. Why should they? As long as we want to get paid more that 8 year old sweatshop employee in China, where is the optimism coming from?

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Too bad I am extremely busy today and can’t participate in this discussion more than I already have. II was right on money when he said that what we are hearing here is another Bush hating “big government” advocate. By the way, Egor, I totally disagree with your statement (I am surprised that old man Greenspan could say something like this) – US Government wasn’t intended to be viewed as a profit making entity (a farm or a corporation).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza: Another thing you can consider Egor... is starting your own business. My old job with H & R Block is putting me through some tax courses for businesses (sole proporitors) and I am going to learn as much as I can so that I can start my own business and I can run my own show. My dream... is to own my own business in the video game industry. It would be so awesome. I study alot into 3D vector math and programming in Direct3D. I also have a market guide to the game industry and learn how they make their money...how the stores make thier money...3rd and 2nd party developers...contractors...publishers... man you name. Their is opportunity out their for you... you just have to look at the business world through the eyes of the entrepreneur where most people will pessimism...the entrepreneur sees endless opportunity and exploits them. Their is opportunity out thier... you just have to figure out what your dreams are and then come up with a plan and go after it. If you aren't building your dream, you are building somebody else's

---

Amazing how I think i agree with everything you say, and you believe you are somehow disagreeing with me :) Good luck in your venture, sounds very cool! :)

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

---

Originally posted by Egor:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mestiza: Another thing you can consider Egor... is starting your own business. My old job with H & R Block is putting me through some tax courses for businesses (sole proporitors) and I am going to learn as much as I can so that I can start my own business and I can run my own show. My dream... is to own my own business in the video game industry. It would be so awesome. I study alot into 3D vector math and programming in Direct3D. I also have a market guide to the game industry and learn how they make their money...how the stores make thier money...3rd and 2nd party developers...contractors...publishers... man you name. Their is opportunity out their for you... you just have to look at the business world through the eyes of the entrepreneur where most people will pessimism...the entrepreneur sees endless opportunity and exploits them. Their is opportunity out thier... you just have to figure out what your dreams are and then come up with a plan and go after it. If you aren't building your dream, you are building somebody else's

---

Amazing how I think i agree with everything you say, and you believe you are somehow disagreeing with me :) Good luck in your venture, sounds very cool! :)

---

Egor, Are you a Noam Chomsky reader by any chance? ;) (just teasing you, Mestiza, since you and Egor are agreeing on many things...)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leah: Are you then suggesting higher taxes for those business who choose to do the other things on your list...hiring foreigners or outsourcing, importing goods, etc.?

---

Maybe eventually. Nothing harsh in the beginning. See what the effect is, and if it works, adjust accordingly. But it may never come to that. For now, in the immediate 4 years what I want is reduction in benefits to companies who do this. Maybe that is all it would take. Bottom line, I want ideas and discussions, on the matter in the congress. I am not as smart as these guys, but would like to see them get to work.

---

"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

guys u putting labels on egor... i would vouch that he is not that liberal... i am more liberal than him and i am not even in the middle of most issues... PS egor, u decided to take our discussion about "neo-feodalnogo xozyistva" to the new level :)

---