6 years ago, 3000 people died in a muslim terrorist attack on the USA. For the last 6 years, President Bush has swung the sword of revenge in violent retribution. I don't know how Americans felt after Pearl Harbor, but I"m guessing they felt like I do. Plenty of Americans don't like what we are doing in Iraq. They hardly like the USA But I do. Peace through strength. I like seeing the USA pursue our enemies in the middle east. Let's face it - President Bush will continue this aggressive pursuit of muslim extremists until his very last day in office. I love it. For those that died 6 years ago - we are still avenging you. We have not forgotten. 9/11 We may not be as religious. But apparently GOD is on our side. We are happy to prove it. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

James, you are not doing these victims any favors by pretending to mass murder in their name. You are not doing it for them. It's clear from what you wrote that you are doing it for you. If you find emotional comfort (as many do) in being victimized (that's been apparent in many other topics), you certainly are setting us up for that again. And each time, the victimization arguments will ring more and more hollow. Lets actually care about the civilians who died on all sides, and work for a world IN WHICH THEY WOULDN'T HAVE. No matter how difficult the challenge. If that makes no sense to you, my condolences, but please choose your words carefully to make sure you are not speaking for the victims, for me, or for the majority of civilized people. So enjoy Bush "to the last day", and after that you can get your fix by robbing old ladies. Forgive me if I've insulted you, but someone has to speak for the victims. Past, present, and future. They all deserve better. Your side has abused them enough for political gain. And what's worse - as an excuse for the greatest evil mankind is capable of - mass genocide of the innocent on a scale unknown in decades, with the only possible outcome being deja vu. There is no fence-sitting here - you have just personally made yourself accountable for mass slaughter of possibly over a million women and children, and for the Americans who will be killed by the hands of their survivors. How does it feel? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor - I have missed your political contribution. What I have to say to Tatiana who's son is serving in Iraq? I'm proud of him. He is making a contribution to the struggle of our generation. Let's agree to disagree. Nothing you or I can say will change our opinion. The USA is doing the best we can in a difficult situation. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

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Originally posted by James Bond: Plenty of Americans don't like what we are doing in Iraq. They hardly like the USA

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Oh, no no no. I hope you are not painting the above as an "if this, then that" situation. That tactic might work on the parts of the voting public who can't read the back of the cereal box without moving their lips, but I doubt it will work here. This war is not an example of peace through strength. “No one but a fool is always right.” -David Hare

I didn't go on the offensive: I didn't say "if you aren't for America, you are against America" I didn't say 'if you don't agree with The President, and The Military then: you are a traitor and you should be hanged. No, I didn't attack you with propoganda. I'm not smart enough to make you think like me..... But just think....6 years ago, a very smart guy that was a Bond trader decided he would rather jump from the World Trade Center than burn up. I still have an image in my head of a guy that looks a lot like me falling from the WTC with his sunglasses on and his tie flapping in the wind, and I don't know what he thought as he jumped out that window, but I know this: I'm here for him. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

Rake, meet the forehead.

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If you were a jornalist you could probably get a positive feedback, James.. It's just that nobody likes when somebody's playing with words about such drrammatic events.. even if you do that sincerely. That's not something against you, that's psychology of people. besides that, many of us just don't like to remember that. [url="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=684817"] [/url]

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music of meah

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Originally posted by James Bond: Let's agree to disagree.

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No way. You've disrespected the victims, just like they are disrespected on every 9/11 anniversay. You support mass genocide in their name. But they are not mass murderers. You are. And you (identically to radical muslims) are breaking the hull of ship on which the rest of us live. Agree to disagree? F*CK NO. After all, I am your hostage in this. Your views must be confronted until they are eliminated from civil society. Leave the rest of us alone. Isn't there a videogame you can play instead? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

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Originally posted by James Bond: 6 years ago, 3000 people died in a muslim terrorist attack on the USA. For the last 6 years, President Bush has swung the sword of revenge in violent retribution. I don't know how Americans felt after Pearl Harbor, but I"m guessing they felt like I do. Plenty of Americans don't like what we are doing in Iraq. They hardly like the USA But I do. Peace through strength. I like seeing the USA pursue our enemies in the middle east. Let's face it - President Bush will continue this aggressive pursuit of muslim extremists until his very last day in office. I love it. For those that died 6 years ago - we are still avenging you. We have not forgotten. 9/11 We may not be as religious. But apparently GOD is on our side. We are happy to prove it. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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Good God....this is a mistake... First, what makes you think God is on your side? Secondly, Bush will be remembered as the worst American President ever for doing what he's doing in Iraq..And lastly - you would not know what those victims wanted so stop!

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I liked the rake-meet-forehead comment. I think I'll step on the rake again - Any President would have felt the need to respond to 9/11. Well, maybe not Al Gore. But even Bill Clinton would have likely gone into Afghanistan. Is it disrespectful that I think we are justified in going after those that attacked us? hardly. Now, the fact is, we have been at war with Iraq since the first gulf war. Bush decided to clean that mess up too. It's turned out badly, but war is a very unpredictable business. Nobody is happy with how things have turned out in Iraq. What I'm really showing is the linkage between going into Afghanistan because of 9/11, and then cleaning up the mess in Iraq as part of the new policy of aggressive first strike (a direct result of 9/11 - we were always defensive in nature before that). anyway, 9/11 was yesterday, so I'll keep my other comments to myself rather than stir up the bees nest. Like Green said, this topic is emotionally hard on everybody. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

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Originally posted by James Bond: I liked the rake-meet-forehead comment. I think I'll step on the rake again -

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The comedy of the rake metaphore only extends to when you are not taking others with you.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Any President would have felt the need to respond to 9/11. Well, maybe not Al Gore. But even Bill Clinton would have likely gone into Afghanistan.

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The only disagreement about Afghanistan was abandoning it in mid-project for the purposes of Iraq, and then openly lying that resources were not stretched. Bringing it up here is a straw-man fallacy. I am with you on taking down the Taliban, and so was every serious politician.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Is it disrespectful that I think we are justified in going after those that attacked us? hardly.

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Ok, again, that's afghanistan.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Now, the fact is, we have been at war with Iraq since the first gulf war.

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Thank you for admitting it had nothing to do with 9/11 - with one exception. Your government noticed the hypnosis you were under and took the opportunity. It was then or never. The problem is that even if we found WMDs, we would today be in exactly the same boat. There was no way this was going to go well, even with extreme luck.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Bush decided to clean that mess up too.

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That's a stretch. He wanted to accomplish goals, the consequences of which are a bigger mess. Which he felt was worth it. But in no way was a case ever made that this would clean up any overall "mess". the word "mess" is married to the word "war". And we replaced peace with war. Simple as that. And questions as to what happens to the Afghanistan "mess", were responded to with the same demeanor you have in this topic. Read a history book, you are smarter than Bush. Its all in there. Redundantly

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Originally posted by James Bond: It's turned out badly, but war is a very unpredictable business.

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Not really. This was predicted by the majority of world politicians, world media, and experts. And also on this very forum :) But your side, James, with your emotions, and hard-headed incompetence - your people's skulls are IMPERMEABLE to reason. It is the same people who confidently spoke about rose petals flying at American troops and free and democratic Iraq, by the will of god, and various human hopes, dreams, and yearnings, that are now hiding behind unpredictability. Where is the unfounded confidence and omnipotence? Saving that for the next genocide? Won't happen. Thank god you are now in the minority. "war is unpredictable" argument you are spouting now will be the nail in the coffin of the politics of aggression. And that's unfortunate, because that capability was a crucial component of our defense (I am no pacifist). We've lost it, who knows for how long. Thanks.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Nobody is happy with how things have turned out in Iraq.

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Read your first post. You CANNOT sit on a fence here. in 2003 everyone liked it. in 2004 some democrats didnlt like it. in 2005 all democrats didnlt like it. in 2006 some republicans didn't like it. In 2007, it almost doesn't matter anymore. We're all just complete morons, ok? :) I don;t care on what specific day you decided you didn't like the way things were going. It wasn't helpful any longer.

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Originally posted by James Bond: What I'm really showing is the linkage between going into Afghanistan because of 9/11, and then cleaning up the mess in Iraq as part of the new policy of aggressive first strike (a direct result of 9/11 - we were always defensive in nature before that).

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Its a pleaseure to be a specimen in your test tubes, but the key point is that you don't seem to have learned a lesson from that experiment at all. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

I'm not sitting on the fence. That's for sure. I'm on the side of what is actually happening. I'm on the side that is very unpopular right now; the strategy that is currently in play. It is easy to poke holes in what's not working. You are being arrogant if you really think you are smarter than everybody working in the Pentagon and the State Department. Bush helped set the strategic direction, but you have the military and State Department and everybody else tactically supporting that strategic direction. It's not just Bush fumbling the ball. It's the entire United States government you are calling stupid. And yes, the Democrats can't wait to get out of Iraq. My opinion is that we should do all we can to keep Iraqi's from killing each other. I doubt if that was really one of the goals going in, but it has to be considered now. Hey, at least Bush didn't fire his entire government today. How stupid would that be? ok, let me step on the rake.... I bet you if things had gone 'according to plan' in Iraq, and we had propped up a functional government, that we would be working on the Iran problem right now. Iran is lucky things have gone so poorly, because they are next on the list for nation re-building. I doubt Bush will have the time to get around to them.... But I'm sure he would like to. "Seeking Russian beauty..."

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

James, i wasn't going to continue this, since when losing you always tend to assume a defensive posture of replying to straw men arguments instead of mine. But.. you made some good arguments here, and unlike you I feel a debt to respond to reasonable points

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Originally posted by James Bond: It is easy to poke holes in what's not working.

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Wanna know somethng that's even easier? Accusing people who are right, of how easy it is to "poke holes in what's not working", as if that's some kind of an argument for your point of view. Its not my fault it's easy. It is the right thing to do, and I did it before it was easy. It became easy for one reason. Because I was right to begin with.

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Originally posted by James Bond: You are being arrogant if you really think you are smarter than everybody working in the Pentagon and the State Department.

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Both of these enteties chose (as they should have) above all, loyalty to the commander in chief. I, a free man, don't have that problem. My loyalty is to the long-term welfare of my country. Those with balls (from either of these departments) no longer have jobs. So yes, they can be infinitely smart. the question is what projects have they been assigned to. Being smart can be almost a wekness when the project was "make up as many reasons as possible to invade Iraq and bring them to my desk" They did a great job. Had they been dumber, we could have been better off Bottom line, James, if the buck stopped with the Pentagon, we wouldn't be in this mess.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Bush helped set the strategic direction, but you have the military and State Department and everybody else tactically supporting that strategic direction.

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Exactly, and everyone else has actually done a superb job, James. The farther down the ranks, the more superb. The "strategic vision" is just flawed.

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Originally posted by James Bond: It's not just Bush fumbling the ball. It's the entire United States government you are calling stupid.

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lol, like you haven't done that! I will agree with you that it wasn't just Bush fumbling the ball - generally the dumber the president, the more people can be blamed. Which is kinda the crux of the problem here. I would name 5, maybe 10 more people. Mostly his cabinet and advisors. Those whom he listens to. "Everyone else" would include even you. We are a governement by the people, and you fell into the same trap as the legislative branch. Except unlike them you still can't get out. How many pathological failures and innocent casualties did it take for you to first admit things aren't going well? How many more will it take for you to agree with me?

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Originally posted by James Bond: And yes, the Democrats can't wait to get out of Iraq. My opinion is that we should do all we can to keep Iraqi's from killing each other. I doubt if that was really one of the goals going in, but it has to be considered now.

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Agreed. I have never even suggested cut and run. Which is why I am not the straw man you seem to be talking to in this topic.

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Originally posted by James Bond: Hey, at least Bush didn't fire his entire government today. How stupid would that be?

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Lets face it - it really doesn't matter. If nothing else - you can enjoy it more to the last day. I am glad there's at least that benefit.

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Originally posted by James Bond: ok, let me step on the rake.... I bet you if things had gone 'according to plan' in Iraq, and we had propped up a functional government,

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Wow.. You still entertain the possibility that this was possible? Incredible.

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Originally posted by James Bond: that we would be working on the Iran problem right now. Iran is lucky things have gone so poorly, because they are next on the list for nation re-building. I doubt Bush will have the time to get around to them.... But I'm sure he would like to.

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Iran is not lucky. Luck is when its a surprise. What they have, we created for them, by having elected a government who shares your views. And even that is not really luck. In my view, it was the plan of the masterminds of 9/11. We've followed their script ever since. _____________ James, even if we disagree on specific points, you've said that there was ball fumbling and things not going well, etc. Who cares why. Maybe I am wrong. Besides, mistakes are ok, as long as we learn from them. We have vast (but decreasing) room for error. But in order for that learning to occur, you must hold your governemnt accountable for all this. At least for what you admit they f*cked up. Which is enough. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Neither of us will change the other's opinion through logical arguments. I will offer up an analogy - Have you ever played Roulette? They spin the wheel and the ball goes round and round, and you hope it falls on your number, or black or red, or whatever strategy you pursue.... A guy once told me a strategy that 'can't lose'. Pick black or red, and then keep betting on it until you win (let's say red). You see, eventually it MUST hit red again. Chances are, it will hit red within 5, 6, 7 spins. Now, any statistician will tell you that the statistcal odds are the same each spin, but WTF, just walk around each table and you can see for yourself that every 5 to 8 spins (at most) it hits red again. You just need one thing to make this strategy work - a whole lot of money. You see, what you have to do to win is double your bet each spin. It looks like this: $2 bet lose: $4 bet lose: $8 bet lose: $16 bet lose: $32 bet lose: $64 bet lose: $128 bet lose: $256 bet lose: $512 bet That means I have to lose 8 times if I only show up with $500. So I should take $1K...$2K? Now, back to Iraq. Your side, the side that wants to surrender, the side that wants to quit early, the side that is promoting that America should be weak and walk away when things are tough - you are the side that is willing to walk away broke from the casino. My side? Stay until we win. My side? Whatever it takes. In other words - worst case we stay in Iraq for the next 50 years. It's the old North Korea/South Korea deal. We sit there, across the border from Iran, and make their lives phreakin miserable. There is no good end game for them - just constant taunting and humiliation by the worlds only Superpower. "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

The biggest fallacies in the previous post:

• It's not surrender, it's self-preservation, a chance to keep your advantage, on the world arena. Look what's happening, another arch-enemy, Serbia, the representation of a threat to the world, is brandishing guns again!
• Define the point where the US will be considered a winner
• Korean example doesn't really work here. Back then all US had to do was to talk to China, and agree on splitting the country into two. Who are you going to talk to here? BTW, do you really think the Korean war was a victory?

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