Alright, if you don;t want long responses, are you saying you don;t want me to respond to all your points? :) For now, I would just say this, and i used the same argument on the global warming naysayers :) A good test for any point of view is the "what if I am wrong" test. I've ran that test on mine, and it passed. We'd still be doing the right thing, even if my pessimism is incorrect. Run it on yours. It's interesting that you brought up a casino. Risk-Reward ratio has to enter into this discourse at some point, does it not? As far as what you are asking it, (my plan) I have given it to you -it is federalization of Iraq. If you think it is simplistic, you have not examined it, because you do not like to read long things (i gather). The federalization plan is also entering the mainstream, versions of it are all over the internet now and you actually do have to read. A lot. If you have specific questions, lets address them here. I don't know what else I can do for you. Returning a dictator is a worst case, a backup plan that would bring stability. Its only a matter of time before even the most stubborn among us admit things are worse without Saddam. Just like it was only a matter of time before someone like you can say "things aren't going well". Well, you are on the right path now. 2 years ago, you wouldn;t have agreed with me even on that (I assume). Because as you said, you are in a casino. Where luck/sticking with strategy is more important than thinking on your feet, and where your risk is only what you put up, and hopefully limited by things you own ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

The truth is... I really don't take all this as seriously as you do. But I do enjoy the debate. "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

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Originally posted by Egor:

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Originally posted by KGBMan: there are no new Russian weapons in Iraq.

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I didn't say there were.

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than why did you brought them up in this thread ?

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Iraq is going to become pretty irrelevant reagrdless of what happens, and regardless of who is right.

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why would you say that ? Are you predicting global war with Islam ?

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And Russia is arming the muslim world very, very quickly.

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hm...really ??? US arms sales in the region are much larger.

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Indonesia is not involved in the conflict in any way.....

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If you were looking out for the interests of the US, which you are not, I would discuss that point with you

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Interests of US are many and hard to track, which ones are we talking about here ?

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Originally posted by KGBMan: why don't you bitch about US supplying SA and Egypt ???

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I have many times here.

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Really ?

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US will fight whoever it arms.

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Yes.. ежики кололись, но продолжали лезть на кактус

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And whoever Russia arms.

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yes, very trigger happy nation...

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Islamic countries should not have their capabilities on the same level as their ambitions. That is a statemnt of self-defense, not of fairness, I realize that.

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actually, this is a statement of pure racism

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by KGBMan: actually, this is a statement of pure racism [img]

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Well, I did not mention a race. But you have a point, I am not obsessed with political correctness. Neither are you, until it helps in an argument. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Iran shouldn't have nuclear weapon, that's it.. [url="http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=684817"] [/url]

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music of meah

Iran or Syria: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article2461421.ece "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

Exactly, at least until it becomes cheaper and easier, which is not too far away when we've made everyone feel they need self-defence from us :) By the way, to make my previous statement a little less racist for tender and sensitive KGBman... NO nation's military capabilities should be on the same level as their ambitions. For US and Russia - that's always been true - no known weapons can achieve the massive clusterf*cks we all occasionally pull out of our asses. Communist planet, Democracy in the third world, end of all terrorism, you get the idea. Our weapons can never achieve our god-like ambitions. The trouble with simpler ambitions of muslim nations is that its easy to achieve with weapons. Blow some stuff up, ambush, shoot down, launch rockets - so little in life actually makes these people happy. So we send them more toys? (if we are not racist, of course) ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

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Originally posted by Egor: NO nation's military capabilities should be on the same level as their ambitions.

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I think the US should get ready to bomb Israel then, fast.

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Originally posted by 412:

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Originally posted by Egor: NO nation's military capabilities should be on the same level as their ambitions.

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I think the US should get ready to bomb Israel then, fast.

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Israel's ambitions are even more fairy tale than the US. And are therefore not achievable with any weapon known to mankind. Do you disagree? Let's see.. they could evacuate their whole country to the US and nuke the entire holy land, then repopulate and rebuild :) Or they could nuke Indonesia or the Philipines. That would only make things worse. What else is there in terms of ambitions? Survival? They barely have enough weapons for that, only to have a 50-year arms race with what the Soviets gave to Muslim countries. Now when Israel starts talking about erasing me from the face of the earth, and threatening my country so they can go to heaven, i'll become opposed to arming them too But for some reason there is a level of confidence that civilized, westernized countries are not a threat - they can have infinite weapons, and we are fine w it. Try to find a pattern as to why. When you do, you'll become a "racist" yourself ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Oh, OK, now that makes sense, they are a civilized country, that's right. . . It's just your description that certainly matched.

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Originally posted by Egor: Blow some stuff up, ambush, shoot down, launch rockets - so little in life actually makes these people happy.

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Originally posted by 412: Oh, OK, now that makes sense, they are a civilized country, that's right. . . It's just your description that certainly matched.

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Originally posted by Egor: Blow some stuff up, ambush, shoot down, launch rockets - so little in life actually makes these people happy.

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I'll concede this point.. But in the context of the threat they've been under for 50 years, I'd say they've been remarkably restrained. Look at the reaction to a single event (9/11) in the US to understand how remarkable Israel's restraint is. Look at your initial reactions to Beslan. I guess that's what I mean by "civilized" in this context. "kill a muslim - go to heaven" is not a prevailing opinion. Israel supports (in its majority) eventual two state solution and peaceful coexistance. What the other side supports, I don't need to tell you. They tell you themselves. Ability to restrain yourself from mass extermination of your mortal enemies, is a must if a nation wants to have nuclear weapons. Wackos need to be on forums, not in power. Another litmus test of a civilized society. Western Europe, US, Israel, have remarkable restraint, bordering on pacifism almost to the point of self-destruction. The muslim word cannot even learn to restrain their speech. Its basically Europe 400 years ago. Thank god, Europe didnlt have nuclear weapons back then ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Interesting... I can't say for certain what are the ambitions of all muslim countries, but I can say with 100% certainty that 90% of all wars were started by civilized countries

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Interesting... I can't say for certain what are the ambitions of all muslim countries, but I can say with 100% certainty that 90% of all wars were started by civilized countries

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Exactly! Meaning that never before in history have the most uncivilized people on earth had any serious military capabilities. Model world history assuming they had. Plus by my definitions, no one's really been civilized until the last few decades, and even now we are pretty bad at it :) We do know, that France, England, US, Israel, hopefully Russia is still in this group - are harmless regardless of weapons, unless they are backed into a corner. Human evolution is struggling to keep up with technological advances in the art of mass genocide. Its a very close race. By adding people who still behead, stone, and die for god to the mix, the balance is tipped into a bad direction. Make sense? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

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Originally posted by Egor: I'll concede this point.. But in the context of the threat they've been under for 50 years, I'd say they've been remarkably restrained. Look at the reaction to a single event (9/11) in the US to understand how remarkable Israel's restraint is. Look at your initial reactions to Beslan.

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Do they have a choice?

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Originally posted by Egor: I guess that's what I mean by "civilized" in this context. "kill a muslim - go to heaven" is not a prevailing opinion. Israel supports (in its majority) eventual two state solution and peaceful coexistance.

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And doing pretty much nothing towards that goal. And remember, there's no notion of heaven in Judaism.

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Originally posted by Egor: What the other side supports, I don't need to tell you. They tell you themselves. Ability to restrain yourself from mass extermination of your mortal enemies, is a must if a nation wants to have nuclear weapons.

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Why not? Tell me. I'll tell you what Ahmadinejad actually said.

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Originally blurted out by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the president of Iran and sometimes not a very bright guy: Our dear Imam (referring to Ayatollah Khomeini) said that the occupying regime must be wiped off the map and this was a very wise statement. We cannot compromise over the issue of Palestine. Is it possible to create a new front in the heart of an old front. This would be a defeat and whoever accepts the legitimacy of this regime has in fact, signed the defeat of the Islamic world. Our dear Imam targeted the heart of the world oppressor in his struggle, meaning the occupying regime. I have no doubt that the new wave that has started in Palestine, and we witness it in the Islamic world too, will eliminate this disgraceful stain from the Islamic world. But we must be aware of tricks.

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He also said one time the following: "We hold a fair and logical stance on the issue of Palestine. Several decades ago, Egyptian statesman Gamal Abdel Nasser, who was the most popular Arab personality, stated in his slogans that the Egyptians would throw the Jewish usurpers of Palestine into the sea. Some years later, Saddam Hussein, the most hated Arab figure, said that he would put half of the Palestinian land on fire. But we would not approve of either of these two remarks. We believe, according to our Islamic principles, that neither throwing the Jews into the sea nor putting the Palestinian land on fire is logical and reasonable. Our position is that the Palestinian people should regain their rights. Palestine belongs to Palestinians, and the fate of Palestine should also be determined by the Palestinian people. The issue of Palestine is a criterion for judging how truthful those claiming to support democracy and human rights are in their claims. The Islamic Republic of Iran has presented a fair and logical solution to this issue. We have suggested that all native Palestinians, whether they are Muslims, Christians or Jews, should be allowed to take part in a general referendum before the eyes of the world and decide on a Palestinian government. Any government that is the result of this referendum will be a legitimate government." Just doesn't sound like "KILL ALL JEWS!" to me, sorry.

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Originally posted by 412: Do they have a choice?

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Yes. I believe they should be much more restrained, we've discussed this here.

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Originally posted by 412: And doing pretty much nothing towards that goal. And remember, there's no notion of heaven in Judaism.

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Agreed on the first part, I never agreed with the politics of Israel. Disagreed on the second part, Jews have no hell, but have many various option for the afterlife depending on their actions during life :) Translated into modern english as "heaven"

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Originally posted by Egor: I'll tell you what Ahmadinejad actually said.

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He only said that for you to be able to make this argument. He's a clever f*ck. Here is a short sample of what he says for everyone else: "Anybody who recognizes Israel will burn in the fire of the Islamic nation's fury." "The skirmishes in the occupied land are part of a war of destiny. The outcome of hundreds of years of war will be defined in Palestinian land. As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map." "If the West does not support Israel, this regime will be toppled. As it has lost its raison d' tre, Israel will be annihilated." "Israel is a rotten, dried tree that will be annihilated in one storm." source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1145961353170&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull Plug in whatever country you actually care about, and describe your reaction. As part of your reaction, what weapons would you allow them in this context, provided you have the power to do so? Nuclear? ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher