It's all relative. If Vietnam was a loss, then in comparison Korea is a victory. I define victory as building a new strategic relationship that benefits that country and the USA. It's really not that complicated: Victory in Japan: occupied after WWII, now our great ally and very powerful nation Victory in Germany: we both occupied Germany after WWII. now our great ally (often both our allies) and a very powerful nation. Victory in Korea - look at the difference in the economies of North versus South Korea. If we had 'surrendered' in Korea, then South Korea's economy would look like Vietnam and North Korea. IRAQ: the jury is still out. But we certainly have the ability to be victorious if we choose to. Why not stick it out, do everything we can to help the Iraqi's find reconciliation, and help them succeed economically? It's obvious to me that our military will stay in Iraq if for no other reason than to fight terrorists 'over there'. Also, we may have been ignorant about middle east culture when we invaded, but we are getting smarter every day on how to make things succeed. Give victory a chance. :-) "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

James, did't I repeatedly say I am not for withdrawing? Who are you arguing with? Take a broader view. There should be more than 2 camps of morons on every issue, no? The two party system has its perks, but the way our brains evonlve inside this system... Just sad. The problem with what you just wrote (and I partially agree with 412) - the main problem of both camps here is that it's "rhetoric at all costs". cart before the horse, tail wagging the dog, and many other sayings :) You will do what you want to do, regardless of the harm you cause the nation you claim to love. In the name of your rhetoric, you lose sensory perception of what goes on around you. You can't read (example is this topic). You can't evaluate. You can't process. The left mirrors that same mindset except they want to take exactly the opposite acts. Both are just putting their feelings, emotions, pride, superiority complexes, political ambitions (a long list of things that just don't f*cking matter), ahead of this short list of one item: NATIONAL INTEREST. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

So tell us what you would do if you were President. You withdraw from Iraq. Then what happens? I'd like to know the pro's and con's of how it will affect the USA. Let's have you lay out all the details, and then see if I can poke some holes in it? "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

There is something about Egor's posts in this topic (especially the first two on the first page) that I find incredibly hot... “No one but a fool is always right.” -David Hare

chicks dig confident men. plus you are a liberal. lol "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

Well I am reluctant to get into the actual complexities, because any side that cannot be pigeonholed into either "cut and run" or "screw up until you fuck up your country", is not a side that can even be comprehended in the national political discourse.. But let me try to state my views concisely as I can, so that you don't entirely think I am avoiding the issue :) First to reiterate, withdrawing now would leave us somewhere between these two terrible situations: AT BEST - Strongest Iran in centuries, lack of fear by rouge nations of our military ability/political will, reorganization of the region without our input, an energy crisis, and mass terror on our soil by any number of the hundreds of millions relatives of our victims. Our next war, will not be by choice. And it will go even worse. AT WORST - I can see WWIII coming out of a withdrawal. United Sunni front under Saudi Arabia, will have no choice but to fight Shiite expansion. Shiites, will have no choice but to fight back. Europe, US, Russia, China will have no choice but to take sides and send militaries. When any of the 4 I just named meet in combat, say goodbye. If we go with your plans, we basically just delay everything above, while increasing the stakes and the consequences. Why we are only delaying the outcome - The underlying cause of our inability to create stability through democracy, is that democracy brigs out the natural state of the society, at their present stage of evolution. Actually, what's happening in Iraq now, is exactly what should happen, absent a ruthless dictatorship. Except it would be a lot worse, if we were not there plugging up the drain with our trillion dollars (still think you are overtaxed?), and thousands of American lives. Why the consequences will get worse if we let this go on- Nations closely involved are being armed by Russia at lightning speeds. US media is not very interested on the this, but the latest "buyer" is Indonesia, the most populous muslim nation in the world. Nuclear weapons are also becoming mainstream in the region. Weapons of terror are becoming better. People are afraid to join the US military. Al-Qaeda is recruiting more and more people, whose views are psychologically expected, if you are afraid if the word "justified". China and Russia are getting more powerful. Our military edge, if it still exists, may have an expiration date. Our debt and trade deficit grows. Things we can still pretend to afford, we will not be able to in the future. I could go on much longer here. The situation is on a downward slope in every respect. If we are frozen in our "course", our enemies are not frozen in theirs. In fact they adapt and feed on these activities, even this early in the game we can already see this. So what do we do? There are some good suggestions out there, I like Biden's plan. He does not appear electable, but I expect his plan to become more embraced by both parties by 2008. Unfortunately (to add to my list of why things get worse over time if we stay the course), by then the surge troops will be withdrawn (as Bush suggested in his speech), and who knows how many beyond this number if congress/senate have their way. All other items in my list will be farther down the slope. We may not have the armstrenth to do anything that drastic. Hell, we already may not have it now - we are losing more every day while our two camps of morons bicker. One piece of good news, is that any worst-case scenario for the US, is also worst case for Europe, and to a lesser extent - China and Russia. They have nothing to gain from our failure, the reason they've not been "helpful", is strictly because they care about their national interests, and no one wants to be part of a tremendous failure everyone saw coming. And they calculated correctly. There will come a time to let bygones be bygones and create a united effort to stabilize the region. It is up to us when this hapens. All other parties are ready. They've BEEN ready. One of the necessary conditions, is a change in our policy or leadership, whichever comes first. I'll bring up the Balkans here - on this forum I will not get a lot of people to agree with me, but it was one of our few tremendous successes (designed by Biden, by the way, who was the Chairman of Foreign Relations at the time, and a close advisor to Clinton on the issue). Yes, we still have troops there. And that's fine. But how many of them have been killed recently? ZERO. And let's remember, the ethnic infighting and hatred was in some ways worse than currently in Iraq. At least in Iraq, most sides are of the same basic faith and culture. I would expect the only way to victory would be to follow that same model of segregation of the sides. Another way (but this would be too embarassing for us) is to install Saddam Hussein II, or (more realistic) a shiite Ayatollah - a harsh dictatorship, at which point we can erase some of the failures and have a stable region with defined national interests. Anyone with defined national interests and control over the population is a godsend at this point - these kinds of entities are piece of cake to deal with (given adequate representation from the US). What's even more important is we need to lose the attitude. The only justifiable goal is what is in our national interest given the reality of the situation. And neither side has grasped that reality. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

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Originally posted by Leah: There is something about Egor's posts in this topic (especially the first two on the first page) that I find incredibly hot... “No one but a fool is always right.” -David Hare

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Leah, I suspect you would find Joe Biden even hotter! If he only had an outlet to grab people's attention and hold it for an hour, he'd be in the lead. But we don't have the attention span that can last longer than 3 word slogans. And this weakness of our electorate can be our undoing.. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

I'll summarize everything that Egor said: stay or leave, either way US and Iraq are fucked.

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Nations closely involved are being armed by Russia at lightning speeds. US media is not very interested on the this, but the latest "buyer" is Indonesia, the most poanonpulous muslim nation in the world. WTF ??!?!?!?!?!?!? there are no new Russian weapons in Iraq. there was no new Russian weapons in Lebanon (except small number of smuggled Kornets from Syria) .... yet you had to bring it up !?!?!?!?! WTF ????? Indonesia is not involved in the conflict in any way..... why don't you bitch about US supplying SA and Egypt ???

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

Dog.... I think I'll start talking tough around Leah.... : ) Always judge others by the same standards as you would want them to judge you

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

EGOR, YOU ARE A SMART GUY. IT'S TAKING ME A WHILE TO GO THROUGH ALL YOUR STUFF AND RESPOND POINT BY POINT. BUT I WILL HAVE A RESPONSE SOON. REMEMBER - I DO RESPECT YOU. YOU ARE SMART. JUST NOT AS SMART AS ME. :-) "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."

quote:

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Originally posted by 412: I'll summarize everything that Egor said: stay or leave, either way US and Iraq are fucked.

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Yeah, the initial mistake of going in cannot be made up for regardless of outcome now. It was not worth the price we've already paid, even if initial goals were achieved today. There is a wide array of outcomes for us to select now though. Iraq is over as a unified country unless Hussein's niche is filled by another dictator. But are they "fucked"? Only if we withdraw, or if we depend on the success of current policy, which are the only two options given to us by the propaganda machine. when one wins out, we are all fucked. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

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Originally posted by James Bond: EGOR, YOU ARE A SMART GUY. IT'S TAKING ME A WHILE TO GO THROUGH ALL YOUR STUFF AND RESPOND POINT BY POINT. BUT I WILL HAVE A RESPONSE SOON. REMEMBER - I DO RESPECT YOU. YOU ARE SMART. JUST NOT AS SMART AS ME. :-)

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he he :) I am not that smart. This is not nuclear physics. I am just: 1)Actually interested in a positive outcome, rather than "giving something a chance". Too much to gamble with, plus I find it childish. I reject wishful thinking in all situations in life. 2)I am completely uninterested in things that don't matter. I listed some of them already. Yet we are obsessed with these things to our own detriment. 3)I choose to actually process information that enters my senses, and form my opinions based on that information. When I look at the clear sky - I see blue. Rare quality, I am proud of it :) 4)Finally, and most importantly - I am interested in the situation. Anything you are interested in you should be an expert on, we live in the information age. So you could well be smarter than me, I am not arguing. It's not about that Like I said earlier, its about what project you are assigned to And your side are working on a clusterfuck. All that intellect does is help you achieve it more effectively. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

quote:

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Originally posted by KGBMan: there are no new Russian weapons in Iraq.

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I didn't say there were. Iraq is going to become pretty irrelevant reagrdless of what happens, and regardless of who is right. There will be bigger things going on. And Russia is arming the muslim world very, very quickly.

quote:

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Originally posted by KGBMan: Indonesia is not involved in the conflict in any way.....

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If you were looking out for the interests of the US, which you are not, I would discuss that point with you

quote:

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Originally posted by KGBMan: why don't you bitch about US supplying SA and Egypt ???

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I have many times here. US will fight whoever it arms. And whoever Russia arms. Islamic countries should not have their capabilities on the same level as their ambitions. That is a statemnt of self-defense, not of fairness, I realize that. ________________________________________ "Я это понимаю на рациональном уровне, но не могу принять на эмоциональном" --Бизнесмен Борис Березовский

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Strongest Iran in centuries, - REMEMBER THAT HUGE ARMS SALE TO SAUDI ARABIA? WE CAN USE AIRPOWER AT ANY TIME TO KNOCK THEM BACK TO THE STONE AGE. THEY ARE STRONGEST ONLY IF WE LET THEM lack of fear by rouge nations of our military ability/political will, THAT IS EXACTLY THE ARGUMENT FOR STAYING IN IRAQ AND MAKING IT WORK. I CAN’T WAIT TO READ HOW YOU THINK WE WILL DO THAT. WE HAVEN’T HAD ANY ATTACKS IN THE USA FOR 6 YEARS BECAUSE WE AREN’T SITTING AT HOME WAITING TO BE HIT – WE ARE OUT SEEKING THE TERRORISTS. reorganization of the region without our input - NOT LIKELY TO HAPPEN. IF ANYTHING IT’S FRUSTRATING THAT WE AREN’T HEARING MORE FROM OTHER FRIENDLY COUNTRIES IN THE REGION ON HOW TO MAKE THINGS WORK BETTER. HOW ABOUT INPUT ON IMPROVING THE SITUATION FROM THE REGION. I CAN’T WAIT TO SEE YOU HOW YOU WOULD MOTIVATE OUR ALLIES THERE TO HELP US MORE. an energy crisis, - THE BEST WAY FOR IRAN OR AL QAEDA TO HURT US IS TO BLOW UP AND DISRUPT THE EXPORT OF OIL. OF COURSE, THEN THINGS WOULD GET EVEN NASTIER ON OUR SIDE. I GUESS THE PROTECTION OF THE OIL FIELDS HAS BEEN WORKING? THE REASON WE DON’T BITCH MORE AT THE SAUDI’S IS SIMPLE - OIL ADDICTION. and mass terror on our soil by any number of the hundreds of millions relatives of our victims. I GUESS THAT’S WHY THE QUOTA FOR IRAQI’S COMING TO AMERICA HASN’T GONE UP MUCH? THIS COUNTRY HAS A PARANOIA ABOUT TERRORISTS. FRANKLY, I’M SURPRISED WE HAVEN’T HAD AN ATTACK IN 6 YEARS. Our next war, will not be by choice. And it will go even worse. THERE’S ALWAYS THE DRAFT. THERE’S PLENTY MORE NATIONAL BUDGET TO PUT TOWARDS DEFENSE. IT’S LIKE BEING AT THE CASINO – IF THINGS DON’T GO YOUR WAY, AND YOU HAVE ENOUGH PATIENCE AND MONEY, YOU WILL WIN. AS YOU KNOW, WHEN THINGS ARE BAD FOR THE USA, THEY USUALLY ARE MUCH WORSE FOR EVERYBODY ELSE. AT WORST - I can see WWIII coming out of a withdrawal. United Sunni front under Saudi Arabia, will have no choice but to fight Shiite expansion. Shiites, will have no choice but to fight back. WHERE IS THIS WAR GOING TO BE FOUGHT?? IN IRAQ? NOT WHILE WE ARE THERE. IN SAUDI ARABIA? WE WOULD LOVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND OUR ALLIES IN THE REGION. NO, THE ONLY PLACE WHERE THE FIGHT WILL EXTEND IS INTO IRAN – AND THAT WOULD NOT BE THE IRANIANS FIRST CHOICE. BESIDES, I’M QUITE SURE WE PLAN TO KEEP PLENTY OF FORCES IN IRAQ FOR MANY YEARS TO COME. WHY GIVE UP SUCH A STRATEGIC POSITION? AND IT’S EASIER TO MANIPULATE IRAQI LEADERS WHEN WE ARE RIGHT THERE MILITARILY. PS: I’M STILL WAITING FOR HOW YOU WOULD RUN THINGS IF YOU WERE PRESIDENT….. Europe, US, Russia, China will have no choice but to take sides and send militaries. When any of the 4 I just named meet in combat, say goodbye. EUROPE? USELESS. US: WE ARE THERE TO STAY. I BET EVEN THE DEMOCRATS ALREADY KNOW THAT. RUSSIA? I WON’T BOTHER COMMENTING – Y’ALL KNOW THE SITUATION. CHINA? I HATE THOSE PHUCKERS. If we go with your plans, we basically just delay everything above, while increasing the stakes and the consequences. I’M STILL WAITING TO HEAR YOUR PLAN……… Why we are only delaying the outcome - The underlying cause of our inability to create stability through democracy, is that democracy brigs out the natural state of the society, at their present stage of evolution. Actually, what's happening in Iraq now, is exactly what should happen, absent a ruthless dictatorship. Except it would be a lot worse, if we were not there plugging up the drain with our trillion dollars (still think you are overtaxed?), and thousands of American lives. YOU HAVE NOT PUT FORTH ANY IDEAS ON HOW YOU WOUILD IMPROVE THE SITUATION. EVERYTHING ABOVE IS CONJECTURE, HYPOTHESIS AND NEGATIVE PROPOGANDA. WHY DON’T YOU ADDRESS EXACTLY WHAT THE USA COULD DO TO HELP CREATE POLITICAL HARMONY IN IRAQ? THE SURGE WAS TO GIVE THE POLITICIANS SOME BREATHING ROOM TO REACH RECONCILIATION. THAT HAS FAILED. IT’S TOO EARLY TO CUT IRAQ UP INTO 3 OR 4 DIFFERENT COUNTRIES LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN YUGOSLAVIA. SO WHAT IS THE ANSWER? CONCRETE EXAMPLES LIKE: - FIND BETTER SMARTER IRAQI POLITICIANS? - DO THEIR DAMN JOB FOR THEM – HAVE SOMEBODY SIT NEXT TO EACH IRAQI POLITICIAN AND WRITE DOWN WHAT HE SHOULD DO TO TAKE A SMALL STEP FORWARD EACH DAY? - WTF? YOU ARE RIGHT – WE ARE SPENDING A FORTUNE WAITING FOR THESE PEOPLE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO GOVERN. THAT’S CUZ THEY AREN’T USED TO THINKING FOR THEMSELVES. BUT THAT IS EXACLTY WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN. THAT’S WHAT DEMOCRACY IS DOING - WAITING FOR THEM TO LEARN HOW TO BE CIVILIZED GOVERNING PEOPLE. Why the consequences will get worse if we let this go on- Nations closely involved are being armed by Russia at lightning speeds. JUST LIKE WE ARE DOING. WITH OUR ALLIES. US media is not very interested on the this, but the latest "buyer" is Indonesia, the most populous muslim nation in the world. I THOUGHT THAT WAS PAKISTAN. EVERYBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO ARM THEMSELVES TO THE TEETH. I GUESS IT’S A GOOD THING WE ARE BUILDING A STAR WARS DEFENSE SHIELD. Nuclear weapons are also becoming mainstream in the region. THE FATHER OF ALL BOMBS IS JUST AS POWERFUL AS A NUKE ANYWAY….MAYBE WE SHOULD STOP CARING SO MUCH ABOUT NUKE VERSUS MOAB. IN ANY CASE, THE NUCLEAR GENIE IS OUT OF THE BOTTLE – SO THAT IS EVEN MORE REASON TO BE AGGRESSIVE IN SEEKING OUT AND KILLING TERRORISTS AND ROGUE STATES. I DON’T CARE IF LEGITIMATE GOVERNMENTS HAVE NUKES – AT THE END OF THE DAY IF A COUNTRY USES NUKES THE USA, THEY KNOW DAMN WELL THEIR ENTIRE COUNTRY WILL CEASE TO EXIST WHEN WE ARE THROUGH WITH THEM. IT’S ROGUE STATES AND TERRORISTS THAT CAN KILL THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEIR RIDICULOUS IDEOLOGY THAT I WORRY ABOUT. Weapons of terror are becoming better. People are afraid to join the US military. LIBERALS? YES, THEY ARE VERY AFRAID. PATRIOTS? NOT AS AFRAID. MAYBE THE US GOV’T WILL INCREASE THE SALARY FOR SOLDIERS. THAT’S WHAT YOU WOULD DO IN THE BUSINESS WORLD IF YOU NEED TO ATTRACT MORE TALENT. Al-Qaeda is recruiting more and more people, whose views are psychologically expected, if you are afraid if the word "justified". WE NEED TO WORK JUST AS HARD ON THE PROPOGANDA WAR AS THE MILITARY WAR. THAT IS AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DISCUSSION. IT WOULD START WITH QUESTIONS LIKE – HOW CAN WE EXPORT AMERICAN CULTURE TO THE REGION IN SUCH A WAY THAT MUSLIM EXTREMISTS ARE UNDERMINED. I DON’T UNDERSTAND THE MINDSET OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO CAN BE INFLUENCED TO BLOW UP INNOCENT CIVILIANS. KILLING THOSE THAT FOMENT THE IDEOLOGY IS A GOOD START. China and Russia are getting more powerful. Our military edge, if it still exists, may have an expiration date. THE REASON OUR MILITARY WILL ALWAYS BE #1 IS BECAUSE OF TECHNOLOGY. MORE PEOPLE? THE DRAFT. MORE TECHNOLOGY? WE HAVE THE BEST HIGH TECH COMPANIES IN THE WORLD THAT CAN BE PUT TO WORK ON MILITARY TECHNOLOGY IF THAT IS REALLY A CONCERN. (IT’S NOT). Our debt and trade deficit grows. Things we can still pretend to afford, we will not be able to in the future. SO WHAT WAS YOUR PLAN FOR IRAQ? LOL I could go on much longer here. YOU SEE, IT’S VERY EASY TO POKE HOLES IN THE BEST MADE ARGUMENTS. IN THIS CASE, YOU DIDN’T REALLY EVEN GIVE ME YOUR PLAN TO POKE HOLES IN. The situation is on a downward slope in every respect. THE SKY IS FALLING …THE SKY IS FALLING!! If we are frozen in our "course", our enemies are not frozen in theirs. In fact they adapt and feed on these activities, RUMSFELS STRATEGY WAS TO REDESIGN OUR MILITARY – HIS PLAN FAILED IN IRAQ. IT TURNS OUT USING A COLD WAR SIZE ARMY TO SUBDUE ANOTHER COUNTRY’S POPULATION IS STILL THE BEST PLAN. even this early in the game we can already see this. EARLY IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE THE CASINO BROKE. WAIT, YOU FORGOT ONE LAST PIECE OF DEPRESSING INFORMATION THAT DOES NOT RELATE TO ANY PLAN FOR IRAQ: YOU FORGOT TO MENTION THAT WE ARE GOING INTO A RECESSION BECAUSE OF THE SUBPRIME MESS. DON’T FORGET THAT! So what do we do? THAT IS THE QUESTION! There are some good suggestions out there, I like Biden's plan. I WANT TO HEAR YOUR PLAN. OR ELABORATE ON A PARTICULAR PART OF BIDEN’S PLAN THAT YOU THINK WILL ACTUALLY SOLVE THE EXISTING PROBLEM. He does not appear electable, but I expect his plan to become more embraced by both parties by 2008. BIDEN WHO? Unfortunately (to add to my list of why things get worse over time if we stay the course), by then the surge troops will be withdrawn (as Bush suggested in his speech), HE IS TALKING ABOUT 5,000 TROOPS BY XMAS, AND THAT’S IT….THE REST IS NEGOTIABLE. and who knows how many beyond this number if congress/senate have their way. All other items in my list will be farther down the slope. We may not have the arm strenth to do anything that drastic. IT’S EXHAUSTING WHEN THINGS LOOK SO MISERABLE. SEE, I START MY DAY WITH THE GLASS HALF FULL. VICTORY! LOL Hell, we already may not have it now - we are losing more every day while our two camps of morons bicker. AGREED. One piece of good news, is that any worst-case scenario for the US, is also worst case for Europe, and to a lesser extent - China and Russia. YEP. NOT TO MENTION THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ. THEY SHOULD WANT A WORKING DEMOCRACY AND A STRONG ECONOMY – YOU KNOW, LIKE THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES WE CONQUERED. They have nothing to gain from our failure, the reason they've not been "helpful", is strictly because they care about their national interests, and no one wants to be part of a tremendous failure everyone saw coming. SO MUCH FAILURE, BUT STILL NO NEW IDEAS FOR A PLAN? LOOK, WHY NOT COME UP WITH CONSTRUCTIVE IDEAS FOR POSITIVE CHANGE RATHER THAN WALLOWING IN THIS MISERY OF FAILURE AND DOOM. THANK GOD BUSH DOESN’T CARE ABOUT THE POLL NUMBERS. IF HE FAILS THEN ALL HE HAS DONE IS PROVE YOU RIGHT. IF HE STICKS TO HIS GUNS, AND THIS TURNS OUT TO BE A BETTER LIFE FOR THE AVERAGE IRAQI…THEN WHAT? THEN WHAT WILL YOU SAY?? And they calculated correctly. There will come a time to let bygones be bygones and create a united effort to stabilize the region. I’D LOVE TO HEAR YOUR THOUGHTS ON HOW YOU WOULD MAKE THIS HAPPEN SOONER RATHER THAN LATER. t is up to us when this hapens. All other parties are ready. They've BEEN ready. One of the necessary conditions, is a change in our policy or leadership, whichever comes first. IT’S ALL BUSH’S FAULT. SO YOUR PLAN IS TO FIRE THE PRESIDENT. THEN YOU TAKE OVER. SO THEN WHAT DO YOU DO? I'll bring up the Balkans here - on this forum I will not get a lot of people to agree with me, UM, IRAQ? PLAN? but it was one of our few tremendous successes (designed by Biden, by the way, who was the Chairman of Foreign Relations at the time, and a close advisor to Clinton on the issue). Yes, we still have troops there. And that's fine. But how many of them have been killed recently? ZERO. And let's remember, the ethnic infighting and hatred was in some ways worse than currently in Iraq. At least in Iraq, most sides are of the same basic faith and culture. GEEEEZZZZ….YOU ARE NOW RAMBLING. I would expect the only way to victory would be to follow that same model of segregation of the sides. THAT’S SIMPLE MINDED. IS THAT THE PLAN? ALL THIS WRITING FOR THIS ONE SENTENCE? Another way (but this would be too embarassing for us) is to install Saddam Hussein II, or (more realistic) a shiite Ayatollah - a harsh dictatorship, at which point we can erase some of the failures and have a stable region with defined national interests. Anyone with defined national interests and control over the population is a godsend at this point - these kinds of entities are piece of cake to deal with (given adequate representation from the US). YOU HAVE NOW LOST ALL CREDIBILITY. YOUR PLAN IS TO BRING BACK SADDAM? OR WORSE? THAT’S NOT A PLAN. BUT IT IS EMBARASSING TO THINK ABOUT. MY PLAN IS TO STAY IN IRAQ UNTIL THOSE IDIOTS FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE WITHOUT A DICTATOR. IT WORKED IN GERMANY AND JAPAN. IT WILL WORK IN IRAQ. What's even more important is we need to lose the attitude. YOU FIRST! The only justifiable goal is what is in our national interest given the reality of the situation. YOUR REALITY IS MUCH DIFFERENT THAN MY REALITY. YOUR REALITY IS THAT ALL IS LOST. MY REALITY IS WE ARE GOING TO MAKE THIS WORK. NO MATTER WHAT. And neither side has grasped that reality. IF YOU ACTUALLY READ THE ENTIRE RESPONSE, THEN WE SHOULD ALL AGREE NOT TO POST SUCH HUGE LONG RESPONSES.  "Welcome to Pussy Kingdom"

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"Hearts will never be practical until they can be made unbreakable."