People,

Who do you prefer to see as our governor?   I checked out top candidates' web pages and it seems that on the Republican side candidates programs are pretty much copies of one another.  Arizona-like anti-illegal immigration law, second amendment they want to protect (they are all fuzzy on how), "culture of life" (close any possible ways public money could be used for abortion), etc.  The exception is John Oxendine who wants to replace income tax with sales tax.  They also seem to support more school choice (charter schools, vouchers, etc.).  Obviously, there is also the regular talk of cutting taxes.  

Democrats, on the other hand, have more detailed plans on how to solve the pressing issues of jobs (or lack thereof), transportation, water (or lack thereof), and the quality of education (or lack thereof).  They want to do some direct investments in biotech and solar tech (Baker).  

I am actually partial to the idea of replacing income tax with sales tax.  Texas and Florida don't have income tax and stuff there is not more expensive then elsewhere.  School choice is also appealing.  We are already spending something like $8000/student/year and I am not sure that throwing more money at the issue by promoting high-tech education (as Barnes proposes) will necessarily help.  

 

 

 

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

I just can't bring myself to care.  And I really tried.  Georgia will never have a viable candidate i like, due to its voting demographics.  I am ready to vote for the first one that learns how to pronounce "BP".

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Egor,  I did not prefer either candidate who is in the primary.  Nathan Deal has personally helped my family by getting my wife and kids their green cards through his office in Dalton.   You would think I would have supported him as sort of a quid pro quo.  But no.   He is too far right on the immigration issue for me.  So is Handel.  

My position on immigration is that it is a federal matter.  I think it is a very poor time is Georgia history to be weeding out the illegals and spending money to incarcerate them, then paying for their shipment home.  Frankly, every business in Georgia needs every single customer it can get.  Right or wrong, love 'em or hate 'em, they spend their money in the stores in Georgia and thereby increase sales tax collections in the state.  All this talk about illegals getting all the benefits is just bull.  First question on any aid form is social security number.  It's time for amnesty. Amnesty plus real border security to stop the flow of new illegals.  Make all non criminal illegals legal. Let them pay some sort of fine for sneaking in, then, make 'em taxpayers.  Bring them out of the shadows.  They want to live here.  Most illegals are the most hardworking people I have ever met.  We've got so many of our own citizens who want to live off the "system", that we're going to need millions more taxpayers to support them anyway.  It's a fiscally sound policy.

I don't really know who I'm going to support for gov.  Choice between worse and worst.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

As you described it, I actually support the LAST amnesty nationwide, but only if combined with a constitutional amendment to reasonably define the federal governemnt's role in controlling the borders, and to never have another amnesty.  Since this combination of opinions is not a popular one (majority of people who want amnesty also want open borders and are a threat to national security and employment, and crime; on the other hand majority of people who want closed borders do not want an amnesty, are talking crazy about ruond-ups and deportations), there will never be a politician with whom I agree on this issue.  You do not fall into either majority, you could probably be convinced that following one last amnesty, future needs for Mexican workers and consumers could be met by immigration quotas, e.g. legal immigration.  But, in all honesty, who would vote for someone like that?  :)  For one side that's not racist enough, for the other - its not politically correct to patrol a national border.  So there we have it... 

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

I've seen the illegal problem up close and personal.  Dalton is a hub of illegals, so is Gainesville.  These people would make fine citizens.  They are hard working and honest. 

As for your statement that I am not in the majority, tell me about it.  I can't voice this opinion in public up here without an argument.  Almost everyone in Dalton is for 'rounding 'em up.

They simply don't think what the economic impact on our town would be.  We would immediately have half empty schools, all of which we just built.  The grocery stores would have half the customers, as well as the car lots and every single retail store in town. (including mine)  Business is already hard.  Why run off what business we do have?  This is stupid economic policy.   It is a very bad time to further reduce the business activity in our area, and the state certainly can't afford any more reductions in revenue.

And to answer your last question, no I wouldn't.  I think it is time to face reality and secure the border (really do it) and then give amnesty.  I don't know that we could ever pass a constitutional amendment on any particular subject ever again.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Well you are the only person I've met that mostly agrees w me on this, so maybe there is hope after all.  Reason I went as far as saying "constitutional amendment", is that even if some genius governemnt comes to power and secures the border for a few months, (enough to convince swing folks on the amnesty issue), it would take a miracle for that border to remain secured as different interests come to power in the border states or the fed. government.  Protecting the border was such common sense when the constitution was written, clear language was not put in.  Kind of like inalienable right to oxygen. 

But I do agree w you that this won't actually happen, perhaps until a major terrorist attack is traced back to it as root cause.

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

God, we're smart

Border Security is extremely lax on the Mexican border and non-existent on the Canadian border.  You can check this yourself using google earth and simply examining the border with either Canada or Mexico.  No wonder it is so easy to cross.  I've checked and there are entire stretches with no defenses at all.  And BTW, if I'm smart enough to look, the terrorists are looking too.  IMHO

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

Those stretches are probably on the Indian reservations, in a lot of cases they overlap territories of both countries, and neither federal government has any authority there.

Very good ground for some shady business, eh?

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Immigration and guns seem to be the Republicans' top obsessions this election season.  As usual (unfortunately it is usual) people completely ignore the facts and operate on slogans and emotions.

Last night I accidentally turned on Fox "News" and there was John Stossel with his new program.  They were discussing immigration (both legal and illegal) and amazingly enough people were discussing facts and statistics and John would not let them go off to reciting slogans.  I am so unused to seeing an intelligent discussion on a political topic that I actually watched the whole program.  Rather then try to recite all the stats and facts I would recommend you watch it online or read John's blog.   Some stats:  illegal immigration is up over the last decade while the crime went down (casts doubt on whether illegals cause rise in crime).  Crime violence in border states is mostly due to drug cartels, not illegal immigration.  Illegals are actually less likely to seek welfare (in states where they can get it) then legal residents.  We had a guest worker program in this country up until 1964 and the sky did not fall.

Yet, Republican candidates are all trying to outdo each other in who is the toughest on illegal immigration.  And it is hard to race really...  "I support the Arizona-style law here in Georgia!"  "No, I support it better!"  "No citizenship for babies of illegal immigrants" (As if Georgia governor has the power to overrule the 14th amendment).  I just can't wait until someone proposes taking babies from illegal's and placing them for adoption or something like that.  

Guns is another issue.  I don't think gun control even appears on Obama's agenda.  It is certainly very far from the top.  The latest Supreme Court ruling was actually in favor of gun ownership.  Yet, people are going nuts about it.  If you listen to them you may think second amendment is second commandment.   

 

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

On border security...

It will be next to impossible to secure the border (I am talking about Mexican border, Canadian border will certainly be impossible).   Even now people are climbing over the fence, digging tunnels underneath it, and cutting holes right through it.  Soviet border was protected to levels that would be impractical here and people were still able to get through.   

At the same time I notice how much harder it has become for legal immigrants to stay here.  I know one person who is on H1B for almost ten years now!!  Another one finally got his green card after I think eight or nine years.  Another couple may end up moving to Canada because the man may loose his H1B sponsorship and they are long away from getting a green card(s).  Almost everyone has to hire a lawyer to help with the bureaucratic process.  And these are professionals!  I don't know how in the world a lower-skilled worker can move here.

We make it almost impossible for people to move here legally, there is no guest worker program, there are employers who are willing to hire illegal immigrants (don't have to worry about minimum wage, OSHA, etc.).  Why are we surprised we are having an illegal immigration problem?

 

 

  

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Sasha

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Too many people debate as if the point is to show who is smarter, rather than which conclusion is correct.

securing mexican or canadian borders is not a problem at all.

 If US removes military bases from Japan and South Korea , closes it's italian bases and moves them all on mexican or canadian border - problem solved. No more cartels crime or illegal immigration.... 10 people a year that would sneak in is not a problem.

 

There is absolutely no reason to have all those bases around the world. 

 

Bring our boys home !!! 

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- Независимость - это когда в 20-й раз наступаешь на одни и те же грабли, а русские уже ни при чем....

gtshasha,  Fox news is a lot more fair and balanced than CNN, or NBC give it credit for.  What you saw wasn't really all that unusual.  Now, that's not to say FOX doesn't have slanted shows like Hannity.  Certainly, Hannity pushes the Republican Agenda.  But even on that show, he ALWAYS has a liberal Democrat on to give an opposing viewpoint, to which he then fervently disagrees.  But at least you hear the opposing view.  That is something you don't see on NBC, when, in many cases, no opposing viewpoint is offered from the right.  Watch the O'reilly Factor a few nights just to give it a try.  You will notice how Bill O'Reilly is really a moderate and extremely fair in what he reports.  He is not the bug-eyed wild man of the right portrayed by the left wing leaning media.  They just want you to think that so you won't join the millions of people watching Bill and know how fair he is.  His show is not rated #1 by accident.

You statement about immigration is correct in the sense that both sides are using slogans to push their message.  I, too enjoy a spirited, informed debate on this or any subject.  I have seen first hand that the illegals we have in our area come here and work very hard to stay in the shadows.  I am for bring them out into the sunlight as a taxpaying citizen of the US.  They all have American citizen children anyway. 

As for gun ownership, the only reason this is still an issue is the left is constantly pushing to restrict this right for the rest of us.  Let's see, can we name a few countries who banned gun ownership??   Ah...  the old Soviet Union, and China to name a few.   No guns, no resistance possible from the population when the government decides to kill them.  Just a little historical footnote here that Americans paid a lot of attention to.

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you

The myth that it is expensive (relatively speaking) to resonably seal both borders is one of the most mind-boggling lies all americans for some reason believe. Take a bottle of whiteout to the US annual budget where the spending is not beneficial to the nation, not the role of US governemnt constitutionally, or pork barrel spending, or political bribery for previous legislation, and and you can come up with enough money by page 10.

I say "reasobnably seal". because yes - there will be tunnels, there will be human catapults and hot air balloons , but nothing is ever 100%.  Every preventative measure to any criminal activity done by any government of any nation is never 100% effective, yet that argument is never used to cease efforts, unless there is alterior motives where someone with access to lobbyists benefits from the criminal activity itself.  As is clearly the case here. The few ways in which the border can still be penetrated, can then be attacked as individual problems, if this society so chooses.  We have no problem, for example, finding mountain caves in Afghanistan using drones with thermal imaging, and there are countless other technologies to deal with these issues, already used by US military all over the world. 

As an example (not that any politician is actually allowed by their party to even think about this) - a good fence with a gravel road along it, thermal imaging and/or motion detectors every 200 yards or so with camera feeds back to control centers maybe every 10 miles or so, monitored by an operator that can dispatch highly mobile intercept units that can arrive within a couple of minutes.  This is the simplest, but there are so many other ways.   

And I am not even addressing that there are creative ways to pay for it, or even make money off these operations. For example, least creative and most obvious - bring in the required Mexican labor LEGALLY and have them pay taxes.  If we need 15 Million (common estimate of just the illegals currently, i am not even counting legals), say they make $20k anually here, paying $3k in income tax =   $45,000,000,000 in new tax revenues in addition to what they already contribute to the economy, which was covered by mkgilstrap.

Another myth, is that the crime caused by drug cartels is a separate problem, and not a direct consequence of the fact that the members of these cartels are free to roam back and forth daily, if they so choose, and their very presence and success along the US border is not a consequence of the open border to begin with.

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

KGBMan:

Bring our boys home !!! 

KGBman - first time you used the word "our" for something American! 

Belated "welcome to our country" from me to you! 

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"The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money" -Margaret Thatcher

Once again, Egor, your talking way too much logic for many on this forum.

As I read GT Sasha's point about border security in the old CCCP, I wondered maybe it is far easier to keep people IN that keep people out.  Didn't hear of too many people trying to sneak IN.  American spies excluded 

Your absolutely correct that people believe you can't secure the border and that there is plenty of money available to do just that.  Course, all we gotta do is cut off a few of those (sic) liberal expenditures to universities to study the mating habits of cockroaches.  But, even this study will have it's defenders. 

And of course, your observation that the drug cartels are free to transit the border at will, and therefore, their activities inside the US are a direct result of this existing situation will also fall mostly on deaf ears. Certainly, the US shares the blame for the drug cartels in Mexico since it is we who they are ultimately selling to.  Yet, this is another strong reason to actually secure the border.  It would lead to a reduction in the amount of illegal drugs available for sale in the US..

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Make each day count to improve yourself and those around you